soft deck on cc where to cut opinions

Discussion in 'Materials' started by swade, Jun 27, 2013.

  1. swade
    Joined: Jun 2010
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    swade Senior Member

    Hi all!

    I must be sick, took me 6+ months to do a transom and here i am asking questions about a deck repair. But hey wouldn't be worth learning nothing if you didn't use what you learned previously huh?

    Nothing i'm doing right away, but curious on others opinions, planning this as a winter project. First background, soft wood cored deck area, 100% sure it's originated at the usual seat bases (manufactures must do this as pre-engineered failure..how long would it take to epoxy fill then re-drill). I've spent my first month of refurb removing all deck stuff and filling and drilling anything going into core.

    Everything underneath the deck is dry as a bone. handy tip is shove an iphone in access holes,etc and have the flash on...i have basically been able to take pics of the entire areas under the decks.

    Plan is to cut the top laminate around the spongy areas, then recore over the winter.

    i've been pondering this a bit off and on and curious what others think.

    Pic 1 shows roughly where i plan to cut off the top laminate.

    pic 2 shows where the non skid stops and transitions into a channel on the sides which leads back to the deck drains. I've got the rod holder boxes out and the core goes to the end of the channel/transition. The channel feels solid, the spongyness is in the non-skid area but i'm sure the core goes to the edge, but the core is entirely enclosed in glass (no ends exposed , and glassed underneath.

    I'm basically pondering should i cut on that channel (in the center or far edge of the smooth area) or cut in the non skid area. I'm leaning towards the non skid area as i'll have to redo where i cut across the deck anyways.

    If i cut on the smooth drain transition, i have to spend more time fairing, and also i'm not sure it's wide enough to grind back and tape over and have enough strength...though i wouldn't think you'd need a a lot of tape there or grind back really far on both sides of the cut for a deck.

    if i cut in the non skid area i have plenty of area to grind back and fairing is much easier as i'll be doing non skid back over it, but i potentially may have to get core out of a few inches of slotted area of that channel/transition..though it feels solid all along that.

    Anyways back to getting caught up reading other threads around here now that i'm not asking transom questions.

    thanks!
     

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  2. swade
    Joined: Jun 2010
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    swade Senior Member

    thought about this today and not going to put it off until winter i don't think. The seats are pretty wobbly due to delam around the bases...i'm afraid leaving it i'll just do more damage.

    Looked closer and the transition is just glass, core stops at the end of the nonskid. So i'm going to be cutting right around there.

    Debating now to cut just the top skin or cut the whole section out (lower and upper skin). I'm leaning towards the top skin. There's glass underneath though i can't tell how much. But the deck is supported by pads (see pic) and probably glued to the deck underside...that just looks like added complexity if i got cutting the entire section out as opposed to the skin. I suppose if i cut a section out i could run some supports from stringer to string and flanges on the side.

    I just don't see how i'll get a good lamination by cutting just the top. Though i suppose i could laminate my core, put it in and tie it all in even though the lamination to original underside layer may not be the best.

    Going to mull over this some and read over more sites and threads on this.
     

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  3. tunnels

    tunnels Previous Member

    Made in America! for Amercans ! by Americans!! is this really what your like ???

    over the years I worked on some amazing boats and had to do lots repairs made in America just like what's in the pictures above !!soft floors mostly because of crap workmanship and poor quality materials used . One floor was a whole lot of small squares of plywood off cuts I would say 12mm thick and 120mm sqr all came apart as in totally and ended up as a major repair ,

    Another boat was a go fast with twin big V8s and stern drives long and sleek looking and chip board stringers and internal framing throughout the board must have been 20mm thick when it was fitted and only tabbed in place and a splash of resin to seal the chip board once the water got into it ,it simple turned to cornflakes and was really easy to sweep up and take out of the boat !!
    The deck was only pop riveted all 360 degrees not one place was it glassed any where so came off a breeze without any damages .
    Is this what you call well made in the USA !!:D

    Then things that went to extreme's and hatch's that were so heavy took 2 people to lift them ,solid glass some of them or just a 9 mm core between lots glass over and under !!
    Looked beautiful from the outside mind you !

    I nice wee 100% foam filled boat with a loose outer skin and lots and lots of water inside it got caught in a down pour of rain in Tahiti while I worked there and next we know it went poof and was upside down all by its self . Never seen any thing like it happen before . amazing !!the boats float just you cant get inside and stay inside !!wow neat trick !!
     
  4. swade
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    swade Senior Member

    I don't know

    lucas electrics
    renaults
    i avoid chinese tools =) unless i'm going to destroy them. Taiwan tools though i have a bit of confidence in..but i guess it all depends on how the bean counters spec them. Though do think QC is better in certain countries than others (no matter the material/design specs).

    they do stuff funny everywhere =) and who knows who get's the 5pm friday shift that made their doohickey.

    But original owner didn't do too bad, the original bill of sale was iirc around 15k or so 15 years ago. So he got 15 years out of it and from my inspection this is the worst of it and yes i agree, how they are built especially something as common as hardware through coring is so common and preventative it bugs me. But for this guy...347 hours on the meter if he'd spent more or the boat cost more originally would have been a waste.

    I epoxy and redrilled all deck fitting and was surprised none of those had rot but this was mostly kept covered lift. Even the bow rails which were loose as they are on 90% of production boats due to wood screws in coring weren't bad. I took some heavy duty stainless washers, drill pressed em, epoxy filled and redrilled then bedded. Overkill it's an old boat but that stuff bugs me when it's so quick and simple preventative maintenance.

    That said i'm gonna cut the deck this week and repair then go fishing =) I'd leave it for as little as i use these things but the seat wobble is bugging me.

    Looked more today, i've thought and decided to not screw around trying to just cut the top skin...just seems to me more trouble than cutting it out and putting a permiter lip around. I see lots of folks do it on the web, but i'm sure if i cut it and pull it i can get the core out easier, a good lamination and not have to try to pry the top laminate off.
     
  5. swade
    Joined: Jun 2010
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    swade Senior Member

    Cut out! but no pics.

    Think i have this one already figured out. Amazing what a transom teaches you, i this thing out in no time with my chisel skills and psa grinder. I hit the sweet spot (pedestals of course). luckily i think i got the main area, there certainly some damp areas slightly outside of cut areas but they should last awhile...letting em dry out a bit. don't need the boat to outlast me..

    Decided i'm going to leave the inner skin, i've figured out a way to get sufficient clamping pressure with some clamps and screws. So going to put the core, then the skin back on. Going epoxy due to having a gallon, i'm going to finish the deck with something else kiwi grip or something (doubt i could match the old gel even buffed and polished).

    Regular fiberglass cloth tape ok for the deck seams?
     
  6. PAR
    Joined: Nov 2003
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    PAR Yacht Designer/Builder

    Yep, though make sure you have enough tape overlapping.
     
  7. swade
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    swade Senior Member

    thanks! yep, i planned ahead for that and left plenty of space to grind back around my seams.

    i'll probably put a layer of cloth down on the old inner skin in that area, just to re-enforce and fair everything flat for bonding the new core in (small squares leave irregular depth in the inner skin) . i'll put some left over biax under the seat pedestal areas just to reinforce that pivot area.

    at least that's the plan, if i get into it and decide i can't get a decent enough lamination, I'll cut the inside skin and epoxy a lip around the cut out.

    Hopefully get to this in the next few days, why i do this stuff this time of year i have no idea...the rains kill progress. This time though this one's not moving from under cover until rainy season is over...big mistake i made on that last one.
     
  8. PAR
    Joined: Nov 2003
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    PAR Yacht Designer/Builder

    Tell me about it. The rainy season started a little late and it's killing me. I'm working late night and very early morning, just to avoid it.
     
  9. swade
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    swade Senior Member

    it's this time of year I don't brag about the florida weather.

    i used to think weather here was great until i had kids and got a house. Now you do have a few nice months after winter. But then you go into rainy season, which is usually the time of day the kids want to go out. Then after that they change the time and it's dark right when the kids should be out! and unfortunately it's also the time of year my work is slow so house repairs or other projects i always seem to be running around crazy covering stuff up or redigging out the work that got flooded the day before =)

    One day i'll learn, relax and ignore stuff during the rainy season =)
     
  10. swade
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    swade Senior Member

    Ready to cut my ply. Turns out it's 1/2 inch not 5/8 as i was kinda thinking. I was intending to use AC exterior but since it's 1/2 inch i won't be able to find anything in the big box stores except 4 ply pine. i'll run down tomorrow to my local actual lumber store and get the marine 5 ply.

    Deck is well supported underneath the cut out area i notice, and the inner skin is thicker than i thought it would be. outer looks to be about 1/4. But the 5 ply just seems like it would be a bit extra insurance for a few bucks more on something you'll be walking or jumping down on.

    What's in there now is 5 ply.
     
  11. PAR
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    PAR Yacht Designer/Builder

    Maybe 2 layers of 1/4" underlayment? You'll have 6 veneers, plus a the epoxy bond line. Likely close the price of 1/2" exterior, probably less then 1/2" marine.
     
  12. swade
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    swade Senior Member

    Hi yes i did consider using 2 x 1/4 layers. though didn't think of underlayment, is that glue the same as exterior?

    i had read your advice in other threads when i was doing that transom and using more layers canted as opposed to 2 * 3/4 really stiffened things up it seemed dramatically.

    Since i only needed 1 sheet and was under a time crunch (hoping to get this cut today and fitted) and glued down in the next day or 2 (who knows with the storm)...i went ahead and got the 5 ply marine.

    I'll have to look at the underlayment though when i'm there again, i'm not too familiar with plywood, only know about the A,B,C faces and that the exterior uses waterproof glue, and some have more voids than others...just something i need to get more familiar with.

    I did kinda wonder since i'm only replacing a section if having a stiffer repair would would be better or worse. I'd assume maybe it would stiffen up the whole area, but wasn't sure if that would alternatively create some kind of a potential stress point since 1 area will flex more than others.

    But either way on this deck i'd imagine either would have worked ok.

    I finally found a use for a multitool. When i tried to use it on the transom i didn't see much use. But man it really came in handy in some of the gaps on the deck where i couldn't get that 1" belt sander arm in to clean gaps and cut a few areas of laminate i needed a bit more control over (less dust too)
     
  13. PAR
    Joined: Nov 2003
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    PAR Yacht Designer/Builder

    Yep, a multi tool can be pretty specialized, but sometimes the only good option too.

    If you suspect some ares (like the repair) will be stiffer, just feather back the edges, around the transition from old to new, so it's more gradual and can be filled with more goo and fabric, much like what a Payson butt joint does.

    Underlayment can be good or bad, depending on a few things. The glue should be WBP and the veneers should be of relatively equal thickness with few voids. This said, I've seen some real crap underlayment, with paper thin outer veneers and these tend to peel off pretty easy if soaked.
     
  14. swade
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    swade Senior Member

    just an update. no pics but looks like every other old boat with a hole cut in the floor =)

    Everything toothed. Got my all my ply cut and test fitted!

    Well one advantage of the small core squares is if you decide to knock a couple more out around your cut area it's doable. There were a few i didn't like the poke with a screw driver test on. With chisel and fortitude they're simple to get out and i like the test on the ones behind them. Pretty happy with my surrounding area around my cut condition, i went pretty healthy.

    I cut 2-3 inches inside the non skid on the side. there's a 3-4 inch transition to the rod holders which is a drain channel. I didn't like the looks of some squares under that drain channel/transition on one side ( i knew i would have to get lucky there). My solution: remove rod holders, cut the edge of the deck skin inside. hammer and steel plate to push that 5-6" inches of core out under neath there thru the cut. I then used a cut belt sander belt to clean the gap ...like shining shoes between the 2 skins.(after hitting with a grind disc as far as i could). I cut my core then saw cutted a few channels in it so it would bend down in the transition. After everything is set i'll reglass up that cut edge behind the rod holders.

    Have a few fitted small pieces around my main cut i'm hoping to drop in tomorrow and add some biax around the seat mount area (though think i may ditch those for a cooler seat). Then drop the main core area mon or tue (crosses fingers).
     

  15. swade
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    swade Senior Member

    Progress but no pics =( yeah i know these threads stink without pics. Will try to take some tomorrow though this is a pretty standard repair.

    Core all test fitted. Got my small fitted pieces glued in the areas i further knocked out around my cut. Glad i did those. I realized quickly how hard it is to really clamp an inner skin up. Last minute screws to pull the inner skin up worked...small pieces so didn't take much. Due to that i spent more time today working out my clamping strategy a bit more for the main core piece (about 3.5x4 foot piece) but will probably end up using screws as well in certain areas just for extra insurance.

    In hindsight i think it'd be easier/faster to just cut the inner as well and build a lip. But I feel pretty good about my clamping strategy.

    I had a bit of left over 12oz biax from the transom on the other boat. Not enough to do my whole cut area, but i re-enforced a good bit of area under the pedastal seat area and in the center of the cut area, this is the unsupported area (deck is supported by pads on top of stringers)...this should help with bonding the core as the center inner skin area is what's unsupported and gives the most. it looks like it will bring it more level with the surrounding supported areas of the cut and 'clamp up' a bit better. I imagine it will firm up the area a bit more as well. When i go to put the core in, i'll thicken up the mix a bit more and transition it a little to the bias area, it's only 1 layer.

    Clamping strategy is i predrilled 1 hole for each seat. I'm putting a small 1/4 inch board down the center of those under the inner skin. 3/4 pieces are going overlap under that from bolt hole to bolt hole. So the small 1/4 inch piece will be leveraged and pushed up to push up the main center area. Side areas are well supported ...i can walk on those with no give since that's where the deck supports are. Just some weights from up top should bond it, and maybe a few screws for extra insurance should suffice.

    Hopefully tomorrow i'll glue in the core.
     
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