ISO 470xx

Discussion in 'Boat Design' started by Danielsan, Jan 4, 2005.

  1. Danielsan
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    Danielsan Amateur designer-builder?

    Hi just curious to know.

    Just trying to see if it is possible to do for a one off, to make a small day cruser(24ft) according ISO, or other standards?

    What standard should be considered 47020,47040,47060,47080 or others or only parts of them that apply to each one of the above?

    I know you can go and consult them for free(at the NBN), even copy them (manualy) but isn't it possible to get those standard for free somewhere else? As I am not gooing to spend the rest of my life copying text.

    Greetings,

    Daniel Peeters
     
  2. fcfc

    fcfc Guest

    On www.rsg.be , you should find a rsg guideline for the recreational craft directive 94/25/EC . This document can be found free nearly anywhere.

    It will explain what clause of the ISO rule you should apply if you want a CE mark.

    Good luck ...
     
  3. danielro
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    danielro Junior Member

    Hello, as far as i know, to get the ISO standards you have to pay. The rsg guideline will give to you a complete information about what standard you shall apply in each part, installation, ... but will not include the complete standard. If you are going to build a craft for you own use you can not get the CE mark because this type of crafts ARE EXCLUDED of the CE Directive about recreational crafts, normally each country issue internal own regulations to define the technical documentation that should be submitted or the surveys that should be carried out in order to approve and register the craft.
    Kind regards
     
  4. Dutch Peter
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    Dutch Peter Senior Member

    Not completely correct, the guidelines only talk about the EN-ISO standards that are specially developped for the Directive. But it is up to the builder wich standards he wants to use. You can also think of using MCA small craft code.

    Not correct, as an amateur boatbuilder you can get a CE mark!! If you choose not to, you are not allowed to sell the craft for 5 years.

    Since the last update of the Directive (2004) this is now also described, in order to get a uniform way of assessing a craft.
     
  5. danielro
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    danielro Junior Member

    Thanks Dutch, to clear the question I transfer the text and comments to the Directive.
    [I]11 (g) craft built for own use, provided that they are not subsequently placed on the Community market during a period of five years;
    the exclusion in (g) concerns craft built by their future user, provided that they are not placed on the EEA market within five years of being put into service. This does not preclude the sub-contracting, by the builder, of spe******ts in certain aspects of the fitting out of the boat e.g. electrical or electronic engineers.
    A kit boat bought by its end user, from the kit boat manufacturer, not completed in accordance with the kit manufacturers instructions (i.e. modified*) but to the “desires” of the end user is considered to be a “boat built for own use”.
    If, for whatever reason, a boat built for own use is intended to be placed on the Community market, whether completed or partly completed, within the 5 year period, then certification by a person or persons fulfilling the role of manufacturer would be required in a similar manner to (f) above. These persons would take the responsibility for the appraisal of the design, construction and any necessary modification of the boat. This appraisal, with regard to compliance with essential requirements of the Directive, involves the procedures necessary for conformity assessment.
    * It is considered that these modifications relate to compliance with the Directive’s Essential Requirements and not features outside of the scope of Annex 1.
    Note:
    A member of the general public building his own boat (in his garage or garden , for example), from materials bought on the open market is deemed to be “building a boat for his own use”.
    This boat lies outside of the Directive and does not require compliance with the essential requirements and thus CE Marking. If for whatever reason this situation changes then the provisions detailed above would be seen to apply.
    It should be made clear that a private person who enters into a contractual arrangement with a professional company, yard or individual constructor to build a one off boat (be-spoke) is deemed to have entered into an arrangement where there will be a transfer of ownership.
    Such a boat is deemed to fall under the Directive and will have to comply with the Essential Requirements of the Directive and applicable conformity assessment procedures. Reference is made to text expanding Article 4.
    Boats built for own use have the concept that a person is building their own boat and not having it built by others.[/I]
    At least in Spain is cheaper (by far) to approve and register a craft using our own technical regulations (called Circular 7/95) for this type of craft instead of call to a Notified Body (LR, GL, IMCI...) to obtain the CE mark (but depends on the Modular Choice too).
    As far I know the 2003/44/EC talks about personal watercraft, noise and exhaust emissions???? Do you know if anything has changed about "craft build for own use"??
    It's possible that the Directive transpositions will be different??
    ;) sorry for my english, kind regards.
     
  6. Danielsan
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    Danielsan Amateur designer-builder?

    As far I read the 24/25/EC regulation I can agree with Dutch Peter, But that leaves me with " how far do I have to go "? For instance they talk about reelings in the 47020 but is the 47020 intended for small craft or is it a general standard for ship building?
    As far as I read I didn't find anything about reelings in the other standards.
    What if f.e. you don't use reelings, do you have to aply a standard?

    Perhaps most important, does it has to be CE compliant or CE certified?

    Greetz,

    Daniel
     
  7. Dutch Peter
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    Dutch Peter Senior Member

    Daniel,

    Personal watercraft, noise and exhaust emissions were added, but regulations about homebuilding remain the same.
    I believe you can download the new Guidelines for the Directive from almost any NoBo website now.
     
  8. Dutch Peter
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    Dutch Peter Senior Member

    Daniel,

    I'm not familiar with the standards you're talking about, but I seams to me that on the first pages the relevency/application of the standard is explained/stated.
    Furthermore if the standard is for general shipbuilding, it's safe to assume that it's requirements will meet the Directive's second purpose: safety.

    And again, you don't have to comply with the standards, but with the Directive.

    Looked at the ISO - site. 47020 is not a standard but a ICS code from ISO.
    And you'll not find relevant standards there, because 47.020 is about offshore structures. Look at ICS 47.080 and you'll find all relevant standards there:

    http://www.iso.org/iso/en/CatalogueListPage.CatalogueList?ICS1=47&ICS2=80&ICS3=&scopelist=

    Inserted the link for your guidence.

    As for your last question, there is only mention of 5 items (apart from the boat) that have to be CE certified when placed on the market or put in a vessel, that's intended to be placed on the market:

    - windows and hatches
    - start-in-gear protection
    - steering systems
    - fuel tanks and hoses
    - ignition protection of ventilators (not sure about this one)

    And that's only when they are PRE-fabricated, when you make it yourself the items have to comply with the relevant standard, but CE certification is not required.
     
  9. Danielsan
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    Danielsan Amateur designer-builder?

    Ok THX,

    This will help me to move on

    Greetings,

    Daniel Peeters
     
  10. danielro
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    danielro Junior Member

    Daniel, if i were you :)...
    First: I would go to the Administrative Centre in your area to ask if there is any National rule instead the European Directives and what "exactly" you have to do in your case. (In Spain, previosly to start the construction you shall submit a complete set of drawings, calculations and a memory...signed for a naval architect)
    Second: i would look for similar cases. I would ask to "home builders" for all proccess followed.
    Bear in mind that the Administration philosophy of the mediterranean countries it is not the same that the northern countries.
    Here, in Spain, the Government is, how can i say it... is more ¡¡fatherly!! i imagine.
     
  11. Dutch Peter
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    Dutch Peter Senior Member

    Daniel,

    Normally you're right, but in the case of Pleasure Craft,the Dutch (and German) gouvernments have decided on a 'stoolpigeon'-policy. No action, unless someone is complaining.

    But this does not mean I advocate to brake the law, just stretch it!!!
     
  12. zerogara
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    zerogara build it and sail it

    As far as I have learned the CE certification is mandatory for pretty much all boats to be register in the EU. Small racing sailboats are excluded, as well as other types of small craft intended for racing (canoes, kayaks, sailboards etc.).
    The ISO certification is voluntary as a sign of quality of production.
    Am I correct on those assumptions?

    I have designed and built a small light fast 4.5m sailing boat/skiff and have thought of manufacturing it in small numbers. I have heard several stories but from what I've found in paper about CE certification it does not apply to the type of craft I'm interested in.

    On the other hand for small sailboats (under 12m) the design folder and verification of meeting the class and tyoe of craft safety requirements is kept by the builder and audited only when there are complaints, unlike previous regulations in EU countries where the design had to be approved by a national or international ship building registry before it is manufacured.
    Consulting firms to meet standards seem as they want to sell services that are not absolutely needed to operate a small outfit.

    If any of you veterans can throw some light in my blurred assumptions I'd be oblidged.
     
  13. Guillermo
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    Guillermo Ingeniero Naval

    Maybe you can CE mark your amateur built boat, but you should do it under module G, which requires full intervention of a notified body, from design approval to full construction survey, stability assessment, etc., using the appropriate ISO standards. That's pretty expensive and I do not know of anybody who has done that.

    In my experience the most usual thing is to use the specific regulations of the particular country, being in Spain the 'Circular 7/95', as danielro states. Further on, I think most governmental spanish marine inspectors would be very surprised if an amateur appears asking for a permission to build his boat under the CE rules. Most probably they will restrictively interprete the 'Circular 7/95' and will not accept it, stating the mentioned 'Circular' shall be used instead.

    Interesting point for me, as I quite often deal with CE marking and 'Circular 7/95' issues. I'm going to ask my local authorities about what would they do if somebody appears asking for a CE marking for an amateur boatbuilding project....
     
  14. Mikey
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    Mikey Senior Member

    The list of ISO standards link that Dutch Peter gave does not look complete. You can select to show both published standards and standards under development but I still miss 12215-8 (rudder etc), 12215-5.x, 12215-7 (multi hull), 12215-9 (appendages and rig).

    They are still under development, aren't they?

    By the way, what does 12215-6.x cover? What more standards under development in this area is missing on that list?
    Anyone know how many different 12215-5.x and 12215-6.x there are and what they cover (12215-5.1, 5.2, 5.3, 12215-6.2 etc). Don't know where to find this information.

    Mikey
     

  15. Guillermo
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    Guillermo Ingeniero Naval

    Have a look at: http://www.icomia.com/technical-info/docs/ISO Standards.htm

    For more comprehensive info on CE marking: http://www.icomia.com/technical-info/document.asp?TI_ID=4
     
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