Small Tri's under 20', any mention of foils is banned..

Discussion in 'Multihulls' started by waynemarlow, Jan 13, 2015.

  1. Russell Brown
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    Russell Brown Junior Member

    Glad that you like the Trinado.
    That boat worked pretty well with Tornado hulls for Ama's, but I don't think it's optimal. They tended to make a rooster tail when pressed upwind and were a bit weak in the nose when pressed off the wind.
    Moving the forward connective points is also a downside of using beach cat hulls, not that I am against the idea.
    I think the Tremolino was the best use of beach cat hulls and rig. I sailed a lot on a ratty plywood one with Hobie 16 ama's and a Hobie 16 rig. Not only was it really fast (against other fast boats), but it was also really amazing in wild conditions.

    What's the story behind the L-7 Mundt?, I was not even aware of the design before seeing it on this thread. I like it. It's got a bit of the bumble bee proportions, but sometimes that works really well.

    Russell
     
  2. 2far2drive
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    2far2drive Senior Member

    let me also say that I'm a huge fan of the trinado and used to day dream constantly about buying your molds and building them by demand only. But then I realized I dont have the patience and skill for pro boatwork haha. Those 2 shots of her screaming along though, easy one of the sexiest most beautiful tris ever in my opinion.

    the l-7 has also been on my radar but build costs have turned me away every time. Not to mention, I have yet to still get my first sail in on my nearly completed strike 18. The L-7 was designed by Mike Lenneman. All ply but you can buy his grp main hull and ama bottoms as part of a kit to save serious time and building ease. At one time, mike even offered people to come and use his molds for free, just to get some boats built and shut Ian farrier's mouth in a fight over on SA. Great boat and fast.

    loving the discussion here. Keep it going guys!

    might put a future build in my mind!

    dont forget (little too big) Mike's new W22. Build blog on his site and the boat is looking great!!!
     
  3. Corley
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    Corley epoxy coated

  4. idkfa
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    idkfa Senior Member

    Upwind, the windward board may be clear of the water.
     
  5. hump101
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    hump101 Senior Member

    In any case, the reduced speed relative to the donor cat would mean you'd want both boards down to provide enough lateral lift.
     
  6. ThomD
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    ThomD Senior Member

    My feeling is that small tris, which to me are sub 26, are a fairly diverse lot. At around that point you can have the berths in the wing layout, with folding, etc... When you step down from that point, you better really check any promises, they start to get too small to deliver conventional formal sleeping accommodations for the most part. I like the Tremolino layout when they hit the above 20s. For real sub 20 and cruising I like the Farrier 18, and the somewhat similar Scarab 18. But in that range the hull sometimes exceeds the ratio whereby it does not form a bow wave at normal operating speeds. I suppose if you accepted that kind of compromise in an over 20 the restrictions I mentioned would not exist either. But most people seem loath to do so unless really pressed. Down in the 16 range, it gets hard to deliver much in a tri that cruises and my preference would move to something like a Jarcat layout.

    I thought Richard's questions at the outset were as good as the response was classic, "what do you want from this list?", to paraphrase. Answer, ++. Yeah, well that isn't the point is it. The point is what do you want, and what will you accept not getting. A lot of designs overpromise, and you find a few years later after launch that the berths that were mentioned are onshore, or something. Never comit to a small cruiser without a full mock up of the berths first. I've had my D24 for about 25 years now, and I only last year figured out where the second berth was, for real.
     
  7. Richard Woods
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    Richard Woods Woods Designs

    Right now the small trimaran threads are the most popular. But they aren't really going anywhere

    That's partly because everyone wants something different, there has been no SOR stated, so it's all too vague

    I write as someone who designed, built, owns and sails three trimarans all under 20ft

    We have been sailing my Strike 18 for about 4 years, the Strike 15 for two and the Tryst was new this year.

    My wife has done a lot of sailing (5 Bahamas trips, from Maine to Panama, Alaska to Oregon, down to Mexico etc) but she doesn't like sailing wet and fast. So when she helms the Strike she sits in the cockpit, I don't ever remember her sitting on the tramp. See here

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a7ArEJGNGGY

    I, on the other hand, hardly ever get off the trampoline

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ycsGLNuA6FQ

    So I tried to make the Strike 18 two boats in one. As I want my wife to enjoy sailing with me, I trade some of my enthusiasm for speed for a bit of comfort.

    I find the publicity photos for the Searail and Multi 23 etc interesting. Boats like that might appeal to young families. So why no photos of children on board? Is it because the cockpits are too narrow and shallow, so very wet to sail, and basically everyone has to be on the trampoline, instead of safely in the hull? That would scare many mothers.

    They might also appeal to older sailors downsizing. But many such sailors have bad backs and need to lean against something for comfortable sailing. Again not possible on many of these trimarans. As I said, it isn't all about the sailing.

    Certainly one of the big advantages of the trimaran over the catamaran is the comfortable deep cockpit with a good backrest. So why make the trimaran like a beach cat?

    Especially as most agree it won't be as fast or as dry to sail. In fact some must be horrifically wet in any seaway - especially the sit in and steer with your feet models

    To be a successful production boat it has to appeal to seniors and people with children and not just to die-hard racers. Melges and Jboats get away with it because they are big names with a huge potential market (relative to small multihulls).

    As I have said many times, resale value is important to me, so I don't like having a pure racing boat any bigger than a dinghy. I appreciate some people can afford to throw their boat away, but that doesn't help a boatbuilder sell new boats so ultimately it is counter productive.

    Anyway here are some questions to answer which might help you make a start on finding out what you all really want

    Do you:

    race
    cruise
    daysail
    sleep on board
    sail offshore (more than 50 miles from safe refuge)
    build it
    buy production
    keep the boat at home
    keep it in the water all the time
    own a small trimaran right now
    ever sailed one
    do you have a family who might sail with you

    I am currently in discussions with a European boatbuilder about building a production centre hull similar to my Strike 20. I'll keep you posted

    Richard Woods of Woods Designs

    www.sailingcatamarans.com
     
  8. upchurchmr
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    upchurchmr Senior Member

    The main reason I have not participated in this thread is that I can't answer Richards questions. At least not 2 days in a row.

    But my desire is a under 20' tri, so I hope everyone will try to comment relative to their answer. That is - answering the question as a part of your discussion.

    One interesting question I have is why not an old Cross 18? for the daysailing answer. It has a seating area with backs for use 60+ guys, relatively light and cheap (plywood chined hulls), with sail area such that you could use a donor rig that is available.
    It doesn't look as modern, but I expect it sails much the same as anything of equal SA, weight, and beam.
    Other information to the contrary would be welcomed.

    Has anyone brought up the W17? http://www.smalltridesign.com/W17/greybox/W17-Trimaran.html
    [​IMG]
     
  9. Richard Woods
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    Richard Woods Woods Designs

    Yes to W17, it's a nice boat and there is a 20 something as well

    As for the Cross 18. I would hope that designers had moved on and were now doing better boats. Maybe not, which is a depressing thought.

    But that video I showed of me steering the Strike was when we were racing against, amongst others, a F24 with mylar sails. Despite being 6ft shorter and using dacron sails bought from ebay (the jib was 40 years old) you can see we were the same speed, or faster.

    So would a Cross 18 do as well? Cross designs in general don't have a good reputation for performance

    RW
     
  10. Richard Woods
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    Richard Woods Woods Designs

    It may be useful if someone who knows about these things put my questions, posted above, in a poll. That way people could get a feel for the sort of boat posters are after

    RW
     
  11. rcnesneg
    Joined: Sep 2013
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    rcnesneg Senior Member

    For me:

    race Yes!
    cruise Yes
    daysail Yes
    sleep on board No
    sail offshore (more than 50 miles from safe refuge) No
    build it Yes
    buy production Probably not.
    keep the boat at home Yes
    keep it in the water all the time No
    own a small trimaran right now Yes
    ever sailed one Yes
    do you have a family who might sail with you No, not likely, but possibly one other person.
     
  12. redreuben
    Joined: Jan 2009
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    redreuben redreuben

    poll

    race A Little
    cruise A lot
    daysail yes
    sleep on board Yes In a double ;)
    sail offshore (more than 50 miles from safe refuge) Yes
    build it Definitely
    buy production Highly unlikely
    keep the boat at home No
    keep it in the water all the time Yes
    own a small trimaran right now No
    ever sailed one Yes
    do you have a family who might sail with you Yes

    Currently liking John Patterson's 21' "little boat"
     
  13. Richard Woods
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    Richard Woods Woods Designs

    There you are - see!

    The first two replies show they want completely different boats, even if they both are under 20ft trimarans. No wonder no one can agree on the ideal boat

    Have to say I'm not sure about taking a boat that small over 50 miles offshore. For example, the Patterson boat could have sailed from the Great Lakes to the Panama Canal and not sailed that far from land.

    Although having said that, it's about 120 miles across the English Channel and people (even me) do that all the time in small boats, but possibly not in 20ft trimarans

    RW
     
  14. rcnesneg
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    rcnesneg Senior Member

    Exactally! He's looking for something like the Patterson 21, and I'm looking for something more like the Diam 24 or Mosquito. Totally different!
     

  15. redreuben
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    redreuben redreuben

    As I've said before the "pure cruiser" niche has been forgotten as everyone gets on the Farrier/Dragonfly performance cruiser bandwagon.

    The Searunner, Horstman, Cross genre has been forgotten. Now I know in the 30'+ market the catamaran is king, but under 30' the Trimaran format is hard to beat but it seems no one is interested in modernising the mini-cruiser, which surprises me. We know people still buy plans (Bucc24) there is no competition in plans or production boats for the micro or mini cruiser, its all big cockpit trailerable at all costs, slim hulled no payload sports boats.

    There, said it, rant over :D
     
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