Small Tri's under 20', any mention of foils is banned..

Discussion in 'Multihulls' started by waynemarlow, Jan 13, 2015.

  1. upchurchmr
    Joined: Feb 2011
    Posts: 2,899
    Likes: 100, Points: 63, Legacy Rep: 579
    Location: Ft. Worth, Tx, USA

    upchurchmr Senior Member

    "That sexy modern shape is not here yet but as I've said before, there are at least two designs about to be released which are very modern in looks, they are not far away."

    Promises, Promises :)

    I could do without the "modern" reverse bow look.
     
  2. waynemarlow
    Joined: Nov 2006
    Posts: 411
    Likes: 36, Points: 28, Legacy Rep: 134
    Location: UK

    waynemarlow Senior Member

    Oddly enough that sexy modern reverse bow shape restricts the cabin space.
     
  3. Bfrancis
    Joined: Mar 2015
    Posts: 9
    Likes: 0, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 10
    Location: GA, USA

    Bfrancis Junior Member

    Thanks, Wayne great food for thought. I browsed the classifieds on thebeachcats.com yesterday. Even older F18's like hobie tigers are abound 8 Grand here. Tornados appear rare. Prindle 19's and Narca 5.8's seems a bit cheaper. I agree though, it probably works out cheaper to buy a complete one with good sails /deck gear and trailer.

    I think I read that the 1st Strike 18 will use Nacra 5.8 hulls and a tornado rig. Not sure if that's just what the guy had, why he didn't use a Nacra 5.8 rig. Specs don't suggest a huge difference.

    Humor me a second. Lets assume I built a strike 20, and due to financial issues had to use a non ideal donor boat, a Hobie 18 is all I could procure. Rig is heavy, sails are a bit small, hulls short and heavy. Is the whole thing completely useless ? Won't sail, too heavy and underpowered ? Or is it not quite as quick as it would be with better hulls.

    Given that I am likely to never, see, sail or race against another similar boat. How bad would it be.

    Very rough figures that I wouldn't be able to go much over, seems like $3k Complete donor boat, $3k ply, epoxy, plans etc, $2k Other stuff, beams etc.
     
  4. waynemarlow
    Joined: Nov 2006
    Posts: 411
    Likes: 36, Points: 28, Legacy Rep: 134
    Location: UK

    waynemarlow Senior Member

    Sadly your budgets are not going to get that really nice modern sassy looking Tri, but, and here's the but, it will get you something like the Strike or Scarab that is perfectly functional and will do the job of fun sailing, far faster than waiting for the ideal boat to appear.

    Extra weight is the enemy of all multihulls, yes it will turn a good design into a dog in a flash.

    As you are not likely to race, nor be looking for resale value, as the less good looking a boat is, the least its value ( yes that shouldnt be the case but in the real world we all like nice looking baubles ) why not take a nearly OK design and get on with building. You may have to reconcile yourself though of perhaps just not owning the prettiest boat in town and dare I say it, resale values perhaps less than your actual building costs.

    Perhaps consider building from scratch including Amas and simply watch Ebay and Craigs lists for the bargain sails and rig, its surprising if you have plenty of time, how one can accumulate really good gear for not a lot.
     
  5. Bfrancis
    Joined: Mar 2015
    Posts: 9
    Likes: 0, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 10
    Location: GA, USA

    Bfrancis Junior Member

    Thanks, by pretty I simply meant that the Strike 20 at least from drawings looks to be lights years ahead of the Strike 18.

    The Strike 20, the Scarabs 18 and 16, and Sardine Run all look pretty good to me. These are currently top of my list.

    The Strike 18 and Tremolino, look just a bit too dated for me.

    I am already reconciled with not having the prettiest boat in town, that said we have a small fleet of mostly terrible boats locally, the bar is quite low !

    Resale is not a big deal, if I build the right boat, I plan on keeping it a while.

    Here is where I am going around in circles. Assume I build a Strike 20 and plan on using Prindle 19 / Nacra 5.8 or Tornado( bottom of it's price range ) hulls and rig. I think step 1 is to find the donor. Those items, within a reasonable geographic area are quite specific things to find at an acceptable price point. It seems like a bit of a leap of faith to start the build relying on being able to find the parts when needed.

    If I built a design that required those hulls and rigs I think it would be sensible to get the donor boat first.

    If I built a design that could use a Hobie 18 or 16 for parts, I think I would have the confidence to start building as donors are easy to find.


    I currently think that the Strike 20 is favourite compromise of right boat, easy build. If I can get suitable donors. I think this would be the one for me.

    Failing that I think it would be a case of building my own AMA's and looking harder at the Scarab 16 / 18 or Sardine Run or Acorn 21 (sorry, not a tri)

    I guess the next step would be to look at the study plans to starting comparing, costs and times for each boat ? Right ?
     
  6. jamez
    Joined: Feb 2007
    Posts: 500
    Likes: 28, Points: 28, Legacy Rep: 231
    Location: Auckland, New Zealand

    jamez Senior Member

    . Hi Bfrancis. Yep. Get your material lists and price lists and start a spread sheet. Richard publishes basic material lists on his website for the tris and Acorn. Scarab study plans are not expensive and I note the full download plans are on special atm for 100$US. At that price they might be worth getting for education value alone.

    As someone who can foresee the day when keeping my current 7.5 metre tri on a swing mooring becomes a PIA, an 18-20 foot trailerable daysailing (meaning without accomodation) tri has some appeal. I like the simple approach Richard has taken with his Strike series. Either the 18 or 20 would meet my perceived future need. Aesthetics are in the eye of the beholder of course. I know the screen on the 18 would be a blessing beating back up our harbour into a 20 knot south-westerly, even if it looks a bit 'added on'.

    We are in a similar position in NZ with regard to suitable cheap donor boats. Occasionally an old beat up Tornado comes along for 2 -3k or so but usually more like 5k +. F18s are more expensive again.

    Personally, and as long as you don't go using anything which would compromise safety, I wouldn't worry about putting a boat like this together with some 'sub-optimal' componentry if that is all that is available. Where out-right speed is not the main driver you may find performance is acceptable, if not better shaped floats and lighter rigs can always be added later if you feel the need.

    You may already have found this thread but if not it includes posts from a Scarab 16 builder and Ray Kendrick.
    http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/multihulls/scarab-16-a-36620.html

    There is a bunch of other stuff on the site re. small/donor tris. Many of the same issues seem to come up every so often.
    Eg. http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/multihulls/trimaran-design-15998.html
     
  7. Bigfork
    Joined: Dec 2009
    Posts: 44
    Likes: 2, Points: 8, Legacy Rep: 17
    Location: Montana, USA

    Bigfork Junior Member

    Interesting ideas bouncing around! I too dream of DIY. I really like the L7 (if I'm going to dream), the W17 by mike waters (if I didn't want a cuddy), or the Drifter 17 by ? (which looks like a work of art)...

    In reality, I've got two other boats that need tending too:)

    I have been gifted some H18 hulls whose tops were soft. My brother took on the repairs, getting one mostly fixed (realized later he was better off just picking up a whole hobie again for 2500$).
    I wouldn't be afraid to cut into the decks to install bulkheads for hinging box beams. Could Hobie 18 hull be lengthened? I realize part of the issue is the dated hull form, bow specifically. A small scale foam layup putting 24 more inches into the center wouldn't be impossible...

    just thinking.
     
  8. waynemarlow
    Joined: Nov 2006
    Posts: 411
    Likes: 36, Points: 28, Legacy Rep: 134
    Location: UK

    waynemarlow Senior Member

    With all that work involved wouldn't you be better off just making new amas that are specifically designed, that are half the weight and bouyancy in the right place.

    All to often we try and salvage stuff that really is past its sell by date and due only to go on the great bonfire of past design that has no future tomorrow
     
  9. Bfrancis
    Joined: Mar 2015
    Posts: 9
    Likes: 0, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 10
    Location: GA, USA

    Bfrancis Junior Member

    Thanks all,

    I think the opinion of the designer is needed here I have e-mailed him. The "worst case scenario" for building a Strike 20 would be to use a Hobie 18. I would hope for a better donor boat, but there might not be one.

    Would the boat be unuseably bad or simply not as good as one made with an F18 ?
     
  10. Bfrancis
    Joined: Mar 2015
    Posts: 9
    Likes: 0, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 10
    Location: GA, USA

    Bfrancis Junior Member

    Looking at the specs of the hobie 18 and the tiger. There doesn't seem to be a huge difference in weight or sail area or mast height.
     
  11. makenmend
    Joined: Dec 2014
    Posts: 8
    Likes: 0, Points: 1, Legacy Rep: 10
    Location: Longview Tx USA

    makenmend Junior Member

    http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/multihulls/small-tris-under-20-any-mention-foils-ban

    Bfrancis, I'm presently building a Strike 18. To that end I watched craigslist and ebay for some time the result was a Prindle 18 and 16 so I now have enough parts to complete my project.
    I will not be using the 18' hulls which are in pretty good shape if your interested.
    As far as aesthetics on the Strike 18 those hard strait lines can be softened with the addition of shaped foam (purely cosmetic ) and glassed over.

    MM
    Ps the reason Richard specs the Nacra/Prindle hulls over the Hobies is because of there greater volume. Now the Hobie cat rigs are very suitable for Strike applications.
     
  12. Bfrancis
    Joined: Mar 2015
    Posts: 9
    Likes: 0, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 10
    Location: GA, USA

    Bfrancis Junior Member

    The Strike 18 has no sort of interior space does it ? Ability to fit a berth ?
     
  13. patzefran
    Joined: Feb 2011
    Posts: 191
    Likes: 14, Points: 18, Legacy Rep: 10
    Location: france

    patzefran patzefran

    As builder of the 1st Strike 20, I can justify my choice for the donor cat.
    Discussing with Richard Woods, we agreed a 19 feet cat was a good choice, as 20' would give outrigger's bows ahead of the main. So I looked for 19' cats as Hurricanes, Prindles or Nacras 5.8. It seems old 5.8 hulls are the poorest technology and higher weight but they have adequate strenth, volume (around 700 l), shape and length and also they use 4 inches diameter round tubes for beams. In a 20" tri we can't use donor cat beams halved (too short !), so with Nacra it is possible to use 4" spinaker pole extrusions for beam at a cheap price. I found first complete Hurricanes 19 in England at good price, but adding the travel from/to France they were way too expensive. Finally I got a package in France comprising two Nacra's 5.8 hulls (different years and weight !) with their daggerboards, F 18 rudders and a Tornado rig including wires, boom and jib at a good price (A Marstrom Tornado aluminium mast !). On the other hand I have already a F20 assymetric spinaker and a 6 m, 4" spinaker pole from my first Tri (A Twiggy 32 I built in 1982). I have only to find a Tornado main or buy a custom one, higher area, to a saimaker.
    So this is the whole story. Now I cross the fingers to get a final weight less than 300 kg.
    I already built a Strike 15 with carbon beams and shortened A class cat rig weighing 128 kg !
    Obviously I would prefer for the Strike 20 a Tornado Carbon mast and carbon beams but it is not the same price !
    Cheers !
     
  14. makenmend
    Joined: Dec 2014
    Posts: 8
    Likes: 0, Points: 1, Legacy Rep: 10
    Location: Longview Tx USA

    makenmend Junior Member

    Bfrancis, the Strike 18 does have an optional lift off cabin that can sleep 2 or with cabin off seating for 6.
    2 years back I built a Core sound 17 the hull cost was approx 2k the rigging masts sails etc (all new) was over 5k.
    So far my Strike should be under 3k using the donor boats.
    MM
     

  15. makenmend
    Joined: Dec 2014
    Posts: 8
    Likes: 0, Points: 1, Legacy Rep: 10
    Location: Longview Tx USA

    makenmend Junior Member

    forgot to mention the prindle hulls will accept 4'' tubing or 4.5'' mast extrusion as is standard for the prindle,plus being asymmetrical no dagger board required either.
     
Loading...
Forum posts represent the experience, opinion, and view of individual users. Boat Design Net does not necessarily endorse nor share the view of each individual post.
When making potentially dangerous or financial decisions, always employ and consult appropriate professionals. Your circumstances or experience may be different.