Small Tri's under 20', any mention of foils is banned..

Discussion in 'Multihulls' started by waynemarlow, Jan 13, 2015.

  1. mundt
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    mundt Junior Member

    and why would a tri be lighter? unless the cat is just a heavy barge...
     
  2. waynemarlow
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    waynemarlow Senior Member

    Now Richard, that thread lasted only 4 posts and some w***** popped the banned f*** word in :):D;)
     
  3. 2far2drive
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    2far2drive Senior Member

    Richard, after listening many months ago to your audio session with Jim Brown, I think you came to a pretty big conclusion about small trimaran comfort levels over the cat, primarily because they have a proper cockpit. am I right?

    The Strike 15 looks like a great boat, especially that guy's. I love the beam modification and it still retains a cockpit. The other tris forgot that feature and perhaps that may make them faster, but then you are back on the tramp.

    The Ultralight 20 looks to be a fantastic boat as well with a lot of power. Ted Warren is known as a lover of nearly square trimarans and the power that they generate. But again, back on the tramp and very wet.

    No one yet has mentioned the Discovery 20. While a dated design, I believe it has a very good "bang for the buck" for a home builder and is comfortable.

    As for folding, imho, folding like a farrier is over complicated, expensive and heavy. The guy that built that system for his Husky trimaran (another a 20ft design) spent "The cost to manufacture the brackets is $900 but worth it". I personally have become a fan of the slide system, like an L7.

    Discovery 20
    discovery20.jpg

    Another shot of the french strike15 from the Tremolino Yahoo Users group
    strike15_1.jpg
     
  4. hump101
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    hump101 Senior Member

    My ten penneth:

    Cockpit and cuddy, the only reasons to have a small tri over a beach cat. With these features, performance won't match a cat (too heavy), but with reef points in the sails the usability and "big boat experience" is very different from a beach cat, and equally attractive. Richards point about who will sail it is particularly relevant, as it is likely that maximum speed will not be at the very top of the list, neither will racing.

    Beach cat donor hulls may not be ideal but can be bought used for less than the cost of materials, and provide rudders, daggers, rigs, etc., along with reduced build time.
     
  5. mundt
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    mundt Junior Member

    I've found the L7 to be an excellent all-around design. I've sailed just about every type of beachcat you can name as well as F-boats and other multis. I also owned an M23. I raced all these boats in the ocean, sometimes in some pretty heinous conditions. There is no doubt that the biggest difference for me is the added safety margin of the tri. You can still get very wet but tris are somewhat more comfy, though a good beachcat with wings can also be very easy on the back and quite seaworthy. Tris of similiar size can be in the same speed range as beachcats. i often beat beachcats boat- for-boat in my Multi 23 and still beat some of them in the L7, though the L7 is a luxury liner by comparison.
     
  6. mundt
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    mundt Junior Member

    I should also note that a good beachcat with a very skilled crew can handle conditions that would curdle my blood and go very, very fast. The same blokes would maybe be able to do even a bit more on a tri, maybe. Point being that on any light multi the skill of the operators is critical, tris being just a bit more forgiving due to greater beam whereas beachcat guys can use there higher relative weight to keep the boat upright and fast. Neither will be particualrly dry or comfortable in big water.
     
  7. rcnesneg
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    rcnesneg Senior Member

    One should note that, at least in my experience, monohulls are much more prone to massive pitching and rolling in rougher seas than a multi, which seems to have no trouble staying relatively flat and just cruises right along.
     
  8. waynemarlow
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    waynemarlow Senior Member

    Mundt raises a very valid issue, that of the effect of two large crews weight moving around the boat, get it wrong and you may well capsize. with these small tri's weighting around the 300kgs, two grown adults could well be 40% of the total weight.

    So how do we play it on these little boats, do we rely on moviable ballast to act as RM such as the SeaRail with its low bouyancy ama's or do we go Seacart 26 style and rely on large volume amas and the crew remain in the safer cockpit area. I think the SeaRail video sort of proved that most people will stay in the cockpit by choice and hence the remake to larger volume Amas, if the crew had got bums on seats further out, would you need bigger Amas and the downsides of that.
     
  9. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    If you rely on "movable ballast" then you wind up with a boat that could well require more athleticism than a beach cat. If you don't rely on movable ballast a "normal" width tri will be under powered. Which downside would you choose? "Normal" width tri's can make great daysailers as long as speed compared to the same size beachcat is not an issue.
     
  10. mundt
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    mundt Junior Member

    the fact that a multi 23 can sail boat for boat with many beachcats belies the above statement. crew placement doesn't have to be particularly athletic, just good sailing. there's really no particular reason why a tri has to be as fast as a beachcat anyway. Does it also then have to be as fast as a windsurfer or kitesurfer too? Doing mid-teens+ on any small boat is super fun and plenty challenging.
     
  11. warwick
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    warwick Senior Member

    Not every one want to just focuss on speed, some people have a different purposes for their boats.

    I have been working on a 21 foot trimaran more for coastal cruising. I also have to fight the speed freak lurking with in.

    [​IMG]
     
  12. Richard Woods
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    Richard Woods Woods Designs

    Personally I much prefer steering from the tramp

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ycsGLNuA6FQ

    and

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JOYhtdFwTpU

    whereas my wife prefers to sit in the cockpit

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a7ArEJGNGGY

    so depends on your sailing style, no hard rules

    Richard Woods
     
  13. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    -------------------
    You beat 20 and under beach cats with your 23' tri? Just out of curiosity how do you compare to cats more or less your own size?
     
  14. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    ------------------------
    Nice, Warwick-can you share the numbers?
     

  15. waynemarlow
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    waynemarlow Senior Member

    Mmmm I think that's the conundrum, to get a really fast boat you need to have small Ama's and use body weight as the RM, to get a safe boat then it's big Ama volume and not such a fast boat unless of course you boost the Ama volume up into the magic 150% volume and accept you are going to fly the main hull as per the Seacart. But then up goes the capsize risk.

    Farrier speaks at length that he believes the Ama. Volume should be small enough to only allow the main hull to skim the water, he believes that the fact the Ama begins to semi submerge when over pressed, that should be a good enough reason to start reducing sail area. But we are talking about sporty little semi racing Tri's here, would that safety valve take out the adrenaline fun factor.

    Ok then we could also use the small Ama/ long beam routine, most commercially built boats seem to be about 4.5m in width, what about increasing it to 5.5 metres ?
     
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