Small Tri's under 20', any mention of foils is banned..

Discussion in 'Multihulls' started by waynemarlow, Jan 13, 2015.

  1. 2far2drive
    Joined: Nov 2011
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    2far2drive Senior Member

    I agree 100% with you and it literally took this thread to open my eyes to that.

    In fact if you look here, this is one of the best "scaled" interior shots I have seen of the Scarab 22. I think a grown adult man would have trouble getting into that fwd bunk, 2 adults I dont even want to think about. I mean, look at the fan in there!

    fwd_with-fan.JPG
    fwd_with-kids.JPG
     
  2. Richard Woods
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    Richard Woods Woods Designs

    If you read Rory's accounts you'll see he wore a dry suit the whole time and complained about salt water boils almost from day one. Another small boat ocean crosser is Sven Yrvind. If you read his log you'll see he talks about digging out "s+++t" with a spoon as he was so constipated.

    Both reasons why I wouldn't personally sail a small boat very far. And if I won't do it why should I expect/recommend my customers to?

    I have told people to try living under a kitchen table for a while to see what a small cabin was like

    I always try to plan for the worst. So I would assume I was asleep at anchor when the wind gets up, it starts to rain and at 3am I realise the anchor is dragging and I need to get on deck NOW

    Richard Woods of Woods Designs

    www.sailingcatamarans.com
     
  3. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    --------------
    Just trying to understand. It's all Cavs fault when he said the word "bulb"......(hah!)
     
  4. cavalier mk2
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    cavalier mk2 Senior Member

    Part of my Tulip shape analogy Doug-tulip bulb :)
    I give you credit for trying but you should be relieved you aren't seeing things! (hah back at you!)
     
  5. cavalier mk2
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    cavalier mk2 Senior Member

    The freeboard of the Patterson should help with the wet pants problem, in a seaway windage is less of a issue than keeping sheltered.

    Richard's Strike layouts are very sensible and versatile, a camping tent could give more headroom than a fixed cabin.

    I noticed Ray Kendrick recommended the Scarab double be used for storage with a 2 person crew. We did the same on my 23' mono as the headroom was about the same. Most of the time in boats this small the cabin gets used for dry storage and the head, a convenience during long outings or a dry lunch spot and out of the way place to nap. Racers will probably just use a cabin to lock up the gear.
     
  6. basil
    Joined: Apr 2005
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    basil Senior Member

    Something for Richard Woods

    Hi Richard,

    This is appropriate for the thread but may not amuse you. I know if I were you I would not be amused. The boat is here in Queensland Australia. He told me he had emailed you to buy plans but got no reply (I find the a little unusual). So he went ahead and built it off your study plans. Fortunately he didn't have the audacitiy to call it a Strike. I have real concerns about the way he had mounted the beams to the hull sides - very suspect. Has had a cabin installed and he used Nacra 5 metre hulls and rig. Has got 2 berths in the cabin and room for a porta potti.

    http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Trimaran...RoGFVuLX1AIapTZyQAZCc%3D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc

    Tony
     
  7. redreuben
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    redreuben redreuben

    Derek Woods.........classic !
     
  8. Richard Woods
    Joined: Jun 2006
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    Richard Woods Woods Designs

    Agreed, it doesn't amuse. If you can give me the guys name I will check to see if he ever emailed me. But I doubt it, as my Strike plans are available as an instant download from my shopping cart

    http://sailingcatamarans.com/buy-designs/strike-18-main-hull-only.html

    so there is no need to contact me to buy plans, you just order/pay/download them. And anyway, I am not likely to turn money away. I do try to answer all emails the same day (unless I am away sailing)

    I see he sold it for about the same price that I am selling my own Strike for, and mine has new sails, furling gear etc. And, judging from the WL, mine is lighter and clearly faster - the beams aren't likely to break off either!

    http://sailingcatamarans.com/index.php/pre-owned-boats

    and scroll down

    Richard Woods of Woods Designs

    www.sailingcatamarans.com
     
  9. ThomD
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    ThomD Senior Member

    I always like his stuff, and used to drop in to look at his cats on a regular basis. That boat say 750 KG. The original plans for my boat which is 24 by 18, were drawn to be 600 pounds dry, and 800 displacement (yeah it sinks when I get on board). When I built it, it got a revision and it was up to 800/1200. The last revision I saw, was amazing compared to what I built 25 years ago, still very cheap to build. Can't comment on relative merits, but the weight you get on these modern boats are pretty heavy. I was looking in one of the sailing magazines and someone had a 24 trimaran, carbon fiber, etc... Turned out to be 22 actual length, and it was said to weigh as much as my ply boat did, in carbon, at ten times the cost.
     
  10. ThomD
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    ThomD Senior Member

    Kids don't care about wingmasts. In fact while they may enjoy the odd sail, my overall sense is they think of it like a car, they want to go to the best swimming place on the lake and hang out. Maybe that is part of the reason Oram cancelled the plans for a cruising pod cat, and built the motor boat. Smartest thing you can do. One of the stupider things you can do is build a boat with the current girl friend or kids in mind. Most people if they finish at all will not get the boat done fast enough to be able to count on whatever plan they had.
     
  11. ThomD
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    ThomD Senior Member

    I really like them but I have been fooled before, pictures and drawing often do not really tell the story. I don't think I am being cruel in saying that the 18 is a response to the fact the 16 wasn't good. Even the smallest of these boats is a large project, and you really don't know where you stand until you are done. No test drives unless you are really lucky. I keep coming back to the Scarab 18 though. Who thinks up these names though?
     
  12. ThomD
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    ThomD Senior Member


    How is it heavy?

    - Cedar can be custom cut, you aren't limited to plywood sizes;

    - You aren't even limited to constant thicknesses or widths;

    - cedar is lighter than most plywoods;

    - It requires the same amount of glass, sure you can only do the outside of ply, but that is not the best idea over the long haul. I have never regretted the light glass I installed, often wished I had installed it when I had not initially. Much will require glass anyway, so the total to do it all, is only a few pounds more. But one can choose one's preferred material, I use ply most often, all the reasons aren't even in the water...

    - Ply is normally a lot cheaper, I can get a sheet of 1/4 inch for 15 canadian, that is more than up to it. And one can mix in the better stuff for crtical areas like beams, you can still do 25 dollar sheet. Ply is also fun, like Origami, maximizing it's pottential, which in this discussion would be Stressform.

    - You could easily go to 4mm for the main hull in cedar, with maybe 6 oz on the outside, and 4 on the inside. The gougeons got hydromat performance equivalent to 1" plywood, out of 3/8 inch cedar with 6 o uni carbon in the 90. While I don't intend to do uni carbon myself, it is an option at relatively low prices, because not so much is required. There is also the Cutts system, which must be public domain by now.

    - Panels aside, a linear wood is preferable when elements are under construction.

    - Piver's original desire was to build round section tri hulls with strip in the water, and ply above. This remains an excellent compromise. I think that was Hatfield's approach for quite a while. But Piver couldn't sell it, the folks wanted to build in ply.

    - Since the 80s, a lot of technologies have fallen the way of strip building. Computer design and cad cam for bulkheads, or for the home shop, master molds, though those are a little dated, maybe not compared to the other stuff we are seeing. Poly glues, better fastener systems; square pad sanders for fast fairing, and so forth. Laying a little strip is not the hassle it once was, but it depends who you are as a builder, and where you live. Strip is possibly the only means of harvesting local wood for the project, free, so improvements in small mills come to mind. Strip is tool intensive, so the advent of lunchbox planers, and the ability to get a range of tools nearly free is another welcome change. Most of the really nice building in veneer and strip took place back in the 80s when a planer was worth about 7K in current dollars.

    I think there is still the ever present Piver thing though. The most popular multi plan boats ever are probably the Wharrams, and you don't get simpler than that. The Wharrams over 30 ft and up are essentially mulitchine, and the chines aren't fair, rather build a Kendrick. But I can't argue with success.

    -
     
  13. ThomD
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    ThomD Senior Member

    I can't tell, but the drawing in 191 looks like a master mold approach. The S curve is common to all the stations, which makes it incredibly easy to loft. You can draw the stations in seconds, and you can use a bog simple jig to precisely machine all the stations with a router and a trim bit. If it isn't, it probably could be. It also means that the fact the drawing is rough is not interesting so long as the master mold is well described, and these days it could be a printable pdf.
     
  14. ThomD
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    ThomD Senior Member

    Kelsall is still wondering who is passing his business cards out in bars...
     

  15. Neonhelm
    Joined: Nov 2012
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    Neonhelm Junior Member

    I like the Patterson as well but my family don't. So it isn't for me either...

    Do you:

    1) race - no

    2) cruise - max 2 weeks a year in North European summer

    3) daysail - max. 3 weekends a year due to other commitments

    4) sleep on board - my wife wouldn't 'sleep in a coffin' eg lower than 70cm above her

    5) sail offshore (more than 50 miles from safe refuge) - no, just Ijsselmeer, Baltic, British Channel

    6) build it - no, skill but better things to do

    7) buy production - yes

    8) keep the boat at home - yes

    9) keep it in the water all the time - no, see 2&3

    10) own a small trimaran right now - no

    11) ever sailed one - no, just beachcats, dhinghys and yachts

    12)do you have a family who might sail with you - yes, wife who likes being on charterd Rassys in harbours enjoying 'The Maritime Lifestyle' / 10yr old daughter sailing Optis.

    Been to the Dusseldorf Boat Show last week with my family to drysail tris. It would be hard to press my wife in a DF 28, let alone one of the other tris (Corsair/Airplay/new DF25). Smallest she would get into is the DF32.

    So it would be something like the used DF920 touring we'ver been on last year for us as it has the 'yachty' touch my wife likes. Which would set us back 75KEUR. For 5x sailing a year? No way.

    So it's us with our compromise: Lots of the marinas are for campervans as well so we're doing the campervan & boats on a trailer thing at the moment.

    But in 10yrs time when the girl is grown up I might potter around in something like the patterson. A pal and a beer and a sunset, you know. ;)
     
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