Small tri for single handed transpac

[rapscallion]

As far as plywood trimaran designs go for this race, here is my shortlist:

Kurt Hughes - Tomcat 30
Newick Val mark 1 (and mark 3 if you would consider strip planking)
Road Rash 7.5M trimaran SYS performance
Crowther - Twiggy

Now, as far as best possible designs - I think the Exploder 25 would be very hard to beat in this application with it's modern foil design, self righting ability, canting rig, easily sealed center hull and impressive sail area/weight/righting moment ratio.

The most expensive part of the boat will be the rig, so the smaller the boat, the smaller/cheaper the rig will be.

 

[ThomD]

I'd be surprised if you can build three round bilge ply hulls quicker than two hard chine flat panel ones, but still.

That is going to be a funny trimaran.

But the reason you can pop them out so fast is it is build wise just a hard chine hull with one seam. Pretty hard to get anything decent with less than 3, and I prefer 4 seams in hard chine. There is no comparison on weight cost, or speed of construction, or how nice the hull looks. For a cruising boat, I can see using other methods on the main hull. I am not sold on the volume you can develop in that one use. But in virtually every other of the dozens of multihull formats it is an option. I also wouldn't want to solo build one above a certain size, but for this size I would be OK. At the very least the amas alone make sense. However, different systems become a near religious thing, so to each their own.

"I was googling for race results for Hughes designs, which surely would prove that they are the "fastest option" but couldn't find anything recent.

OK on his site he says Chaak won the Swiftsure, but it was, as far as I can tell, also from his site, a modified Searunner. And anyway it hasn't raced since 1990. "

After which he did a stressform f40. Whatever the merits of that boat, it would be hard to imagine a better set of expedient hulls made faster or cheaper. Well they would have been better without the core, in some respects.

"I have been racing multihulls in the PNW for 10 years and never seen a Hughes out racing."

As may be, but Canada isn't Seattle, and neither is where the TransPac is located. I don't know the rep of his boats in racing. (Nor have I even seen a Woods tri.) But there have been more than the one's you mention. And then you can throw in the Gougeon rep since I don't care about brand. Dude asked about tris. Not much time or money. As service requirements, yells stressform to me, at least in part.

"So tell me I'm wrong, and his designs have won races recently against "known" designs like the F31,"

If you want to donate an F31 to Dude OP, I am all for it. Short of that, at the plywood level of design, winning is pretty commoditized. Build it strong, light, slipery, etc... you have a chance. The entry fee for an F31 is pretty high, normally folks with a little money. If you want to say that if they gave you that budget for a boat of your design, all the goodies, you couldn't beat an f31, no mater what the conditions. I am Ok with your saying that. But my sense is with the same budget, a ply tri in stressform (SF) is a threat, and could be on the transpac given the conditions you described. But if someone else needs to design it because you figure the F31 is king... Well back to Kurt. Or maybe to keep the heat out, what about this. Adagio 35 feet, repeat winner of various serious races. 2200 pounds. Designers and builders of many winning multis over 16 feet. F31 according to Ostac 3450 KG. Hard to believe, is that right? I got to believe with less than half the weight in stressform, there has to be some race it could win, somewhere. KHSD 30 is around 2300 pounds. That speaks to what the wood will do, and at about 50 cents a square foot for the fiber.

Also I think the premise is a little disingenuous. I don't think there is a backyard boatbuilders cup series that will sort out the best designs. As you point out too many problems. Too much like Connors VS Fay, without the competent sailors. It would be cool if there was a class by boat dollar.

The proof is in the designs. In the case of my KHSD boat, the Tremolino Easter, the name drew a lot of ire. But in the end, Newick drew a few more Trems of his own, and they looked like they might well also eat a Trem alive. That was never a particularly difficult claim to reach. What did they have? Bigger rigs, bigger amas, more efficient rounded hulls. No more hard chines. Where they cheap to build? No. Where they as light as a TE, doubt it. Where they fast to build, did they use ply? No.

Oh wait a second, not an SF boat, but nobody will care past the first bikini.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ldeuwTuQaA

Do you think you could keep up with the windriders in this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9u6UepbaCKo


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RfSQg4s_LsU

When I watch these vids it is just like my ply boat except I have terrible sails, and don't like burying the ama that hard.

 

[Boatguy30]

Possible resale of the boat in Hawaii is a factor. Something like a decently built 25'ish' cat might sell for more than the cost of the materials. The Mana 24 has a certain appeal with a better rig. Rory on cookie certainly had a very fast trip most of the way back to England after the jester so those boats can go if not lightly loaded.

Brad was asking around the wharram forums a few months back about building a tiki 26. If he's starting building now, perhaps I can buy it off him when he changes his mind again in 9 or so months.

Anyway, won't start anything until this fall. Maybe look around for a cheap Santa Cruz or Express 27 this summer.

 

[cavalier mk2]

If going on the race is the primary goal buying a used mono will be more affordable and less pressure to get ready.

 

[Richard Woods]

Not quite sure what you are saying in that post. Seems you are replying to several posts from several different people. My question was not how many Hughes designs there are, nor how many are sailing, but how many have won races - thus proving they would be the fastest option. Otherwise the cheapest//quickest would be to buy a used F27, which I have seen selling for USD20,000

As may be, but Canada isn't Seattle, and neither is where the TransPac is located.

True, but I have raced in both Canada and the USA, as I have a house in Port Townsend Wa and anyway, the US racers go to Canada for the major events, and vice versa. I read both the NWMA and BCMS reports regularly so do know who races where.

I should have said F31R, the carbon version, like the US flagged one I raced in the Van Isle 360 (round Vancouver Island) rather than the all glass F31 I have also raced.

You will see from my website that I raced a trimaran (F27) in San Francisco and a Hughes catamaran in S California.

Over 35 years ago, when I was working for Derek Kelsall, I drew a number of trimarans, including the 45ft Triple Jack, which I believe is still winning races in the Caribbean. I also raced extensively on GB4, which at the time was probably the fastest sailing boat in the world.

I watched Cooking Fat being built and it sailing away on its round the world trip, but I don't know Rory. Except that, like Bob Beggs (who I do know) he is very, very tough.

A Strider would be quicker than a Tiki in the TP, but I wouldn't personally race one that far

Richard Woods

 

[rapscallion]

Possible resale of the boat in Hawaii is a factor. Something like a decently built 25'ish' cat might sell for more than the cost of the materials. The Mana 24 has a certain appeal with a better rig. Rory on cookie certainly had a very fast trip most of the way back to England after the jester so those boats can go if not lightly loaded.

Brad was asking around the wharram forums a few months back about building a tiki 26. If he's starting building now, perhaps I can buy it off him when he changes his mind again in 9 or so months.

Anyway, won't start anything until this fall. Maybe look around for a cheap Santa Cruz or Express 27 this summer.

Wharrams work well on a reach, but don't race well upwind, even with an updated rig. Ask the boatbuilder on florida who builds the Akiri 38, he is pretty honest about the boat's sailing abilities. The Wharram is a great boat - it's remarkably safe, inexpensive, simple and elegant; but like all designs it has limitations, like upwind sailing ability.

For the price of the building materials of a tiki 26 you could likely find a used stilletto 23, or a Reynolds 21 which would be a much better sailing boat, and probably more likely to sell after the race than a plywood boat.

 

[ThomD]

I'd be surprised if you can build three round bilge ply hulls quicker than two hard chine flat panel ones, but still

I was googling for race results for Hughes designs, which surely would prove that they are the "fastest option" but couldn't find anything recent.

One answer would be on speed to build that 2 round bilge SF hulls use 6 panels just like 2 3 panel flat bottom hulls.

Another would be the hulls will not only be better shapes, all equal, but they will be much stiffer for material weight. During the build this means all the parts that structure the hulls can be thrown in in one glue up, and they don't need to be precision manufactured, just cut to fit, which goes very fast. There is no strongback, but you get same build precision. You may or not get design precision.

Another would be half the seams to structure and fair.

-----------------

I am no expert on racing results, or specifically boosting Kurt. He does not seem to get a lot of people following with him after sale. Not running a cult of personality. In this discussion he is relevant because as far as I know, he is the only active promoter of plans in Stressform, or for that mater CM. And he has 30 years experience making the patterns come out in the projects.

But the method is used by many others, including, Russell and Steve Brown, The Gougeons, Reynolds, many early racing cats, etc... It is also somewhat in play with CC boats, some of which have successful race results. What method you use to put the skin on probably doesn't mater all that much, so long as you get a good basic low resistance shape, and low weight. But it maters a great deal to the cost in time and money, and you just can't beat SF on that.

One thing I can say about a Hughes boat is his 24 x 18 as barely competently built by me nearly 30 years ago, weighs about the the same as the folding 18x15 Scarab tri I am interested in building currently. And speed wise, just about everything about it is better. And while it is an apples and oranges thing. They are also designed around the same Hobie rig. The Hughes would have more surface area, which does slow one down all else equal.

 

[ThomD]

Not quite sure what you are saying in that post. Seems you are replying to several posts from several different people. My question was not how many Hughes designs there are, nor how many are sailing, but how many have won races - thus proving they would be the fastest option. Otherwise the cheapest//quickest would be to buy a used F27, which I have seen selling for USD20,000



True, but I have raced in both Canada and the USA, as I have a house in Port Townsend Wa and anyway, the US racers go to Canada for the major events, and vice versa. I read both the NWMA and BCMS reports regularly so do know who races where.

I should have said F31R, the carbon version, like the US flagged one I raced in the Van Isle 360 (round Vancouver Island) rather than the all glass F31 I have also raced.

You will see from my website that I raced a trimaran (F27) in San Francisco and a Hughes catamaran in S California.

Over 35 years ago, when I was working for Derek Kelsall, I drew a number of trimarans, including the 45ft Triple Jack, which I believe is still winning races in the Caribbean. I also raced extensively on GB4, which at the time was probably the fastest sailing boat in the world.

I watched Cooking Fat being built and it sailing away on its round the world trip, but I don't know Rory. Except that, like Bob Beggs (who I do know) he is very, very tough.

A Strider would be quicker than a Tiki in the TP, but I wouldn't personally race one that far

Richard Woods

I have followed multis since around 1980, and have huge respect for your record in both racing and design. Didn't realize you were now/then based in the US though.

 

[Corley]

One answer would be on speed to build that 2 round bilge SF hulls use 6 panels just like 2 3 panel flat bottom hulls.

Another would be the hulls will not only be better shapes, all equal, but they will be much stiffer for material weight. During the build this means all the parts that structure the hulls can be thrown in in one glue up, and they don't need to be precision manufactured, just cut to fit, which goes very fast. There is no strongback, but you get same build precision. You may or not get design precision.

Another would be half the seams to structure and fair.

-----------------

I am no expert on racing results, or specifically boosting Kurt. He does not seem to get a lot of people following with him after sale. Not running a cult of personality. In this discussion he is relevant because as far as I know, he is the only active promoter of plans in Stressform, or for that mater CM. And he has 30 years experience making the patterns come out in the projects.

But the method is used by many others, including, Russell and Steve Brown, The Gougeons, Reynolds, many early racing cats, etc... It is also somewhat in play with CC boats, some of which have successful race results. What method you use to put the skin on probably doesn't mater all that much, so long as you get a good basic low resistance shape, and low weight. But it maters a great deal to the cost in time and money, and you just can't beat SF on that.

One thing I can say about a Hughes boat is his 24 x 18 as barely competently built by me nearly 30 years ago, weighs about the the same as the folding 18x15 Scarab tri I am interested in building currently. And speed wise, just about everything about it is better. And while it is an apples and oranges thing. They are also designed around the same Hobie rig. The Hughes would have more surface area, which does slow one down all else equal.

I have Kurt's 23' trimaran daysailor plans and I honestly can't see any easier way of achieving a 23' waterline on a dead simple trimaran like that and it does have a nice hull shape. I hear about some of his designs turning out heavy I can only guess they don't follow his material recommendations or add weight elsewhere as the weight estimates look pretty accurate on the basis of raw material to lightship weight. The CM hull mold has to save money many people say that a CNC cut mold doesn't add much cost to a job. I beg to differ just for an example the CNC mold for the foam sandwich 40' trimaran main hull I'm building will cost about $4000 AUD to have cut including materials. I had the CM hull mold stations cut in about an hour for $400 and that can do main hull and floats on a CM design. That might not seem a lot to some people but all of those costs really start to add up after a while.

 

[redreuben]

Trans-Pacific but it only goes from Cali to Hawaii, probably a World Championship too is it ?

Scuse the sarcasm, just come out of winter.