Small Pilot Schooner design ideas

Discussion in 'Sailboats' started by Hampton Roads, Apr 2, 2012.

  1. Hampton Roads
    Joined: Apr 2012
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    Location: Dodges Ferry, Tasmania, Australia

    Hampton Roads Junior Member

    Hello,

    I'm new to this forum but have over the years read numerous posts so I'm not totally unfamiliar with it.

    Recently I had Reuel Parker adapt one of his Schooner designs for me, namely his PS45. He reduced this design to 42'and made a few other changes at my request. The results were a great looking boat....but unfortunately I've realised that even at the reduced size it is at the present still too much boat for me to build cost wise. The lead ingots for the internal ballast here in Australia would cost approximately $12000, the list goes on. I guesstimate the total cost of materials would be in the region of about $125,000 maybe more!

    I love the look and simplicity(of the rig) of the early Virginia Pilot boats and I'm wondering if anyone knows of a smaller design along these lines. I'll probably have to get Reuel to do me a new design from scratch, not adapt or modify one of his existing designs.

    I figure a maximum length on deck of 36' and maximum beam of 12' and draft not to exceed 6'...preferably under 5' if possible(Won't be particularly close winded) Hopefully totall displacement no greater than 20,0000 lbs.

    I've posted a drawing or as Bolger would describe a "Cartoon" of the style of craft I desire. Only a sail plan profile.

    Also I've uploaded a picture of the 42' (40'LOD) Pilot Schooner Reuel Parker adapted for me from his PS 45 design.

    Basicallty its a daysailing Schooner with basic accomodations for the occassional overnight trip. The aim is to keep the interior as simple as possible. Standing headroom is not necessary for its intended use.

    Decent size cockpit and ample deck space are a requirement.

    Possibly a Thoosa drive electric motor for the auxilliary. Think of the idea as an enlarged, round-bottom, schooner rigged take off of McGowan Marines "Czarina" Ketch.

    Yes the main mast does have extreme rake, like the early pilot schooners, and is free standing. The foremast is lightly stayed to get a better set on the jib.

    Any thoughts, ideas appreciated.
     
  2. Hampton Roads
    Joined: Apr 2012
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    Location: Dodges Ferry, Tasmania, Australia

    Hampton Roads Junior Member

    I think dimensions of about 33'L.O.D X 11' Beam by about 4'6" draft would be ideal, Shallower draft maybe in conjunction with a centreboard may be an idea..not strictly traditional though but a consideration. I do want the boat to be able to carry a reasonable amount of sail area that is quick and easy to reduce as the wind increases.

    Construction would be as Parker specifies as composite strip-plank core , double diagonal outer with dynel and epoxy sheathing.
     
  3. Timothy
    Joined: Oct 2004
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    Timothy Senior Member

    Nigel Irens Farefarer
     

    Attached Files:

  4. Hampton Roads
    Joined: Apr 2012
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    Location: Dodges Ferry, Tasmania, Australia

    Hampton Roads Junior Member

    Great boat the Farfarer, but too large and slightly too modernistic for my eyes and requirements, but I bet she sails really well!
     
  5. PAR
    Joined: Nov 2003
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    PAR Yacht Designer/Builder

    It wouldn't be especially difficult to find a hull in the appropriate dimensions and have a pilot rig put on it. Maybe you'd be best advised to find a ride on a rig like this first. It's not the handiest thing in the world, particularly short handed and bring an engine for windward work. I've always disliked the absurd rake of these rigs, which seems is that of a ketch, with more area in the fore than the main, though does have a taller main stick.
     
  6. Hampton Roads
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    Location: Dodges Ferry, Tasmania, Australia

    Hampton Roads Junior Member

    Down in my part of the world(Tasmania, Australia) I'm very unlikely to come across a Pilot Boat Schooner rigged boat. I have thought it might be a good idea to build a smallish..around 21'version half-decked open boat to test out the rig and make decisions based apon that.

    The extreme rake on the main mast apparently helps when reefing, the jib is taken in after the first reef then the main is reefed and the boat sailed as a cat schooner. a bitof a garbled explanation. The original pre 1800 Pilot Schooners from what I can gather from reading were mainly sailed as cat schooners with the jib being used only in fairly light winds.

    The large foresail was apparently a very handy sail. On a small schooner it is advantageous to have a larger than normal fores'l, it helps to overcome some of the in-efficent nature due to windage of the schooner rig on small boats. This is what I have read as I haven't experience with this rig yet.

    As to being a ketch, I can see what you mean. The drawing is not to scale and is basically a freehand sketch, the proportions of the rig aren't quite right yet, the sheer needs some work and the cutwater /stem is too massive.

    I'm not a designer just someone with an idea that I'd like developed.
     
  7. PAR
    Joined: Nov 2003
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    PAR Yacht Designer/Builder

    If you check out gallery, I have a small overlapping foresail schooner. I think the proportions are better and the rake sensible. Too much rake makes everything more difficult, including reefing. You also must remember the late 18th and early 19th century pilots lost much of their rake as developments in the type proved more handy. The loose footed fore was a practical consideration, at the expense of sail shape. It freed the working middeck area of a boom. It's a fairly good reaching sail in moderate wind strengths, but becomes increasingly more unruly as winds build and the sheets trimmed. These "antique" rigs and hull forms have a lot to be considered, as the modern sailor usually finds them quaint, but nothing they'd want to live with, in terms of maneuverability, handling ease, sailing ability, etc.
     
  8. michael pierzga
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    michael pierzga Senior Member

  9. Petros
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    Petros Senior Member

    Seems to me a 36' length is a bit large for a daysailor. That is the size many use for deep water cruising and long term coastal cruising. a 30 to 33' size would be a much less costly boat to build and perfectly suited to occasional overnight outings.
     
  10. pdwiley
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    pdwiley Senior Member

    George Buehler has a design - UNCLE SAM - which is a small schooner, or if you want to go really small, POGO. I've a set of plans for a POGO that I've not got around to building. Asked George once about stretching POGO to 20', he said sure, it was overbuilt to start with. Also the Tancook whalers have an interesting shape.

    If you want to look at POGO plans or a book on the Tancooks, you can come & visit and browse my collection here (Kettering). Due to bad experiences I don't loan books (or pretty much anything else).

    PDW
     
  11. Hampton Roads
    Joined: Apr 2012
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    Location: Dodges Ferry, Tasmania, Australia

    Hampton Roads Junior Member

    I've seen George Buehlers's designs and while interesting I really don't like the way most of them look...something just doesn't seem right to me. Hopefully they look better in 3D than on paper.

    36' may be too big for a pure daysailer but I do want some basic accomodations, toilet , cooker etc for the occasional overnight outing or short coastal cruise.

    If designed along the lines of an early Pilot Schooner the internal space for a 36'LOD boat won't be huge, due to the low..ish freeboard and sharp deadrise of the hull.

    I figure 33'LOD is about the ideal size for my intended use. see the two attachments...more rough sketches..but they give an idea as to the style of craft and the size. All dimensions as approximate and the displacements are a guess based on similar sized craft.

    I would hope that the displacement will be under 20,000 lbs and lead ballast no more than 6,000 -7,000 lbs

    We do get some quite nasty weather from time to time around the South,south-eastern coasts of Tasmania and I want a vessel of a size to cope with that..not some 20' bottled cork!!
     
  12. Hampton Roads
    Joined: Apr 2012
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    Location: Dodges Ferry, Tasmania, Australia

    Hampton Roads Junior Member

    Thanks for the link to the Valora article from WB.

    I've been trying to find more info on this boat as she fits the overall dimensions and weight I'm after. Not quite the style though, but good looking in her own right! I heard that she is no more though...sunk..destroyed ?? What a pity.:confused:
     

  13. pdwiley
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    pdwiley Senior Member

    Given I'm building a 12m LOD steel junk schooner that displaces approx 7500 kg and has less than 1.5 tonnes of lead ballast I'd say that you should be able to come up with something suitable. I could put a gaff schooner rig on this hull but I like the Chinese lug rig better at this stage.

    PDW
     
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