Small boats playing in strong wind ?

Discussion in 'Sailboats' started by seasquirt, Jun 16, 2023.

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  1. skaraborgcraft
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    skaraborgcraft Senior Member

    They certainly did in WW2. Cockleshell heroes. British Commandoes into German occupied France.

    [​IMG]
     
    skaraborgcraft, Jun 21, 2023
    #31
  2. CarlosK2
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    CarlosK2 Senior Member

    CarlosK2, Jun 21, 2023
    #32
  3. CarlosK2
    Joined: Jun 2023
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    CarlosK2 Senior Member

    We already have a few well thought out, well conceived concepts, for example:

    + the Scow "Baluchon" with its clever carbon fiber pole
    + the Hasler-Jester-SimpleSailor concept, and
    + LOLA 520

    I see a fourth solution for a small ocean boat: a large/big Surfboard the size of a Mini Ton (i.e. 6 meters LWL and about 1-1.3 Tons)

    A Surfboard has a great 'fun factor' as surfing-gliding with the waves is very beautiful and exciting.
     
    CarlosK2, Jun 22, 2023
    #33
  4. CarlosK2
    Joined: Jun 2023
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    CarlosK2 Senior Member

    Sorry

    I got the wrong thread, this was for the "Yrvind" thread.
     
    CarlosK2, Jun 22, 2023
    #34
  5. skaraborgcraft
    Joined: Dec 2020
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    skaraborgcraft Senior Member

    Saw this morning on a French website, when considering ballasted canoes. Swiss possibly. Amazon /Amasson 50.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    Got the low windage and keel requirement, just need a canopy for the cockpit. Roof rack the hull, ballast keel in the car and a small dolly trailer to launch.
     
    skaraborgcraft, Jun 22, 2023
    #35
  6. seasquirt
    Joined: Dec 2015
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    seasquirt Senior Member

    Skaraborgcraft I think you're getting my idea. The Cockle canoes would have a bit big topsides for in high winds, but pretty nifty ideas. That ballasted wood canoe in the top pic, with a slightly fuller bow may be good; it reminded me of a skinny Illusion straight away. Easy to build plywood design. The glass one looked like having more buoyant bows, and looks like a micro version of a 50 footer older shape, looking down on the deck. With a short mast, shallow keel, foot steering, and some sail, it could be a winner. But looks and imaginings don't count in 50 kn. I'll investigate them further. Never heard of ballasted canoes before. Do you know of their designed use / purpose / conditions; obviously not slalom courses ?

    CarlosK2 Thanks for the reading suggestions, very engrossing, what a mission. Your wrongly directed post was interesting anyway; on LOLA 520, my search only found super yachts, and housing. Have you ever seen a surfboard blow away in the wind ? It happens quickly, and they snap in half too, sometimes. I'm an old surfer, and you would need a lot of weight to keep it down on the surface in moderate winds; add a cabin and mast, and then more weight underneath to stay upright, a heap of stringers for strength.

    In searches I didn't find any other ballasted canoes, only in english language searches. Many people praise the virtues of sailing canoes as faster and more stable than dinghies, so what is the consensus in that regard ? Not having sailed a canoe, but tried sailing a kayak downwind holding a very small square sail, I imagine they would be cramped on long trips, easily laid over, fill up quickly, and become a wet log to control.
     
    seasquirt, Jun 22, 2023
    #36
  7. CT249
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    CT249 Senior Member

    The idea of sailing a small craft in actual 50 knot winds is basically a fantasy for anyone not a leading edge pro. True 50 knot winds are very scarce, although Sunday sailors do exaggerate enormously about having met them, as in the Illusion video. Look at the Beaufort scale for example - in 50 knots "trees uprooted; considerable structural damage". Have a look at the Illusion vid's background - count the trees falling over and the structural damage ashore and there's zip.

    The Lifeboat news of the day said that it was gale force at sea, so the chances that it was two forces stronger than a gale in a harbour inside the Solent seem to be slim. Apart from that, most big yachts, even those sailed by adventurous legends like Skip Novak or those sailing according to sailmaker's wind ranges, have moved to a storm jib and a third reef of storm trysail by 40 knots, which is much less powerful than 50 knots. There's no way a 12 footer could be sailed upwind under full sail like the Illusion is in conditions when big boats are using storm sails. Finally, that's probably a standard dinghy .75 oz spinnaker; in 50 knots if a yacht was carrying a kite (they're not) it would need a 2.2 oz because a .75 would destroy itself.

    As to whether sailing canoes are "faster and more stable than dinghies", there's no way it's true. The International 10 Square Metre sailing canoe, by far the fastest canoe, is faster than most dinghies and about as fast as a singlehanded skiff type like an RS700 or MPS, but it's also much less "stable" than a typical dinghy, in most terms.

    Looking at other sailing canoes, we can see that the big German Taifun two-person canoe and the Swedish (quite beamy and almost more of a dinghy with a pointed stern) are about as fast as typical medium-quick dinghies of similar length.

    The American open sailing canoes, rather more like a paddle canoe with small rigs, are far slower than a typical dinghy; similar in speed to a Mirror according to US yardsticks. So nope, canoes aren't more stable and faster than dinghies.

    Something like the baby IACC class shown a couple of posts back would be a pretty good option. The K1 "lift keel dinghy" may also be of interest as a comparison. The number one thing would be sailing skill and having the right (very small) sails IMHO.
     
    CT249, Jun 23, 2023
    #37
    Robert Biegler and wet feet like this.
  8. seasquirt
    Joined: Dec 2015
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    seasquirt Senior Member

    Yes I think that Illusion must have been tested to near destruction of its full sails, when a handkerchief sized sail would probably have been of more use.
    The 50 Knot figure is an ambit claim, a margin for safety, so if a 30 - 40 Kn fun day did become 50, (maybe a brief squall), the rig would hold up enough to go down wind to safety. I wouldn't go out in strong offshore winds, because you probably just wouldn't get back, but heading out into an onshore wind is safer, generally, so then when exhausted or damaged, you can turn tail and head back downwind to more sheltered waters, or a beach if worst came to worst.

    The German Taifun like you said CT249, is basically a pointy ended dinghy, too big and bulky for my use.
    the K1 is very nice, a bit big for what I want, I'm under weight for it as well, it's made for big boys, and worst of all, the price, ouch.

    That red decked ballasted (I think) sailing canoe posted above by Skaraborgcraft is my favourite idea so far, but maybe go a tiny bit bigger; the wood one comes second for ease of construction. If a water ballast tank, and detachable shallow fixed keel were used, and buoyancy tanks, it could be car topped single handed, have fun in maybe under 40Kn wind, launched / retrieved from a beach or ramp. Store it inside at home. Have a jet fighter type windscreen with open back. Small battery for an auto bailer pump.

    So to reproduce a small craft like that, in the most efficient strength for money, without making complete molds, what would work ? Plywood strip planking or foam sandwich, over frames and bulkheads, epoxy, with one external sheath; make a plug, glass it, remove plug, add internal frames afterward; other methods; I've only ever repaired boats, wood and glass, never built from scratch, but have lurked on here for years absorbing knowledge, which I then forget. Only want to make one, not production, yet.
     
    seasquirt, Jun 24, 2023
    #38
  9. skaraborgcraft
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    skaraborgcraft Senior Member

    You cant get much cheaper for a small one-off than skin on frame, though glassed single skin 4mm ply would be stiffer with the appropriate bulkheads.
    [​IMG]

    You might want to do a search on Swedish Canoes (Kanot) for some inspiration. Early boats were tight seam carvel, cold moulded and then glassfibre.
     
    skaraborgcraft, Jun 24, 2023
    #39
    Robert Biegler likes this.
  10. seasquirt
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    seasquirt Senior Member

    Most of the pics I've seen of sailing canoes racing have folks hiked out, on wide bodied hulls, with huge masts and sails.
    Camping explorer types are long and wide, and some ketch rigs, even with 'cabins', too cumbersome, again it's a different type of sailing to what I want to do.
    Mine's more like sitting inside the Illusion types, being almost part of the furniture, and keeping out of the blasting wind and spray as much as possible, with a sail size suitable to the wind force so no hiking unless exceptional circumstances, and hopefully with 'minimal' heeling in the lower wind ranges.

    So this is the latest state of affairs in my mind: (probably all wrong)
    Narrow, low freeboard, enough sealed buoyancy to not be a sub, shallow long steel plate keel ~30mm x 1m, shaped, which unbolts, water ballast, buoyant bows, foot and hand rudder methods, very strong rudder assembly, short mast, mast keel stepped, backstay, boom roller reefing or 2 different sized mains, small jib, big kite (for lulls), seat, windscreen, bailing system, big enough interior for not being jammed up in a bulky dry suit, internal controls from sitting position inside, thermos flask holder, no need for camping stowage so lots of sealed buoyancy, small shelf or hole/pocket for GPS, EPIRB, torch, etc.
    No foils or moving boards, everything kept simple and strong and mostly light.

    I had an unusual idea, I have an Arrows roto-molded poly slalom kayak which has a nice shape in plan, and was good for its designed use, but is now well used and thin in places, with a streched rippled bottom I don't think can be fixed easily and cheaply. Still useable for fun though. Looking at it upside down it has a fuller pointy tail end than the front, to support a bodyweight in a seat, where the front supports mostly lighter legs, so is less voluminous. But looking at it backwards, the stern has a good shape to be a buoyant bow, and the bow has a good shape to become a slippery pintail stern. So I thought it maybe good to use it as a base to form frames over, modifying and lengthening the new canoe a bit over the formers, keeping the basic plan shape but using it backwards. changing the bottom shape, and giving a strong vertical blade stern to hang a rudder on. The new hull would be similar vertical plan, maybe 50mm wider at the beam due to frames, 200-300 mm longer, and a whole new bottom profile accordion to whatever looks like it will work, as a ballasted sailing canoe. Sorry to the NA's, CAD designers, and experts, I might do a cardboard mockup or two just to look at, but not beating myself up about perfection in any department. It would be a blend of other people's successes and ideas, and mine, thrown together with very little science, just some research.

    It could be a new fad, tearing up marinas in nano yachts (smaller than an Illusion), racing small triangles and loops in protection, and daring to go outside the storm walls, while sensible folk are cosy and rugged up with the cat on their lap. Kite surfers get out there in a storm, and use the wind to leap over public jetties.
     
    seasquirt, Jun 25, 2023
    #40
  11. HJS
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    HJS Member

    HJS, Jun 25, 2023
    #41
    Robert Biegler likes this.
  12. skaraborgcraft
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    skaraborgcraft Senior Member

    Just because. I could imagine using the hull concept, but rig and foils would need to better spec. More usable than a canoe if you actually want to use it outside of Gale-Ssailing.

    [​IMG]

    An entire build thread here. Michalak Robbsboat build: 2019 (tomsrobbsboat.blogspot.com)

    And at risk of encouraging any more craziness, I will bow out.
     
    skaraborgcraft, Jun 25, 2023
    #42
  13. seasquirt
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    seasquirt Senior Member

    Thanks so much for your great contributions and pics Skaraborgcraft, and to everyone else too. That's a good name for it - Gale Sailing. I did consider a birdwatcher for a minute, but it would be too much windage I think, and it wouldn't scale down well usefully. Very versatile boat design though, I'd like one in mild weather.
    Hi HJS, the Hesla Rediviva is nice, with some interesting features, and hull explanations, but two sails would be too much to deal with in a blow, and using just one would make it unbalanced. Any problems with the rear sail / mast gear would be very difficult to deal with. Nice Idea for a double canoe though; one sail each. The pics reminds me of flying fish.
    It's not a mainstream idea I'm investigating, and few would be interested, except for watching the failures, train wrecks, and recovery / rescues.
    I hope a daredevil will like the idea. Maybe an old extreme windsurfer or wave jumper type adrenaline junkie would get into it. I wouldn't be the only one.
     
    seasquirt, Jun 26, 2023
    #43
  14. Robert Biegler
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    Robert Biegler Senior Member

    What measures you must take to avoid the need for a drysuit depends on why you need it in the first place. Where I sail, the water is cold enough that exposure during and after a capsize could kill me through hypothermia pretty much year round. So I would need a boat that keeps me dry throughout a capsize and can be righted without clambering round outside. Whether you need that or not makes a big difference to the weight of the hull. A windscreen would not abolish the need for protective clothing for me, but if you sail in waters warm enough, it may do so for you.

    Let's say narrow translates to 1 metre beam. That might move your centre of buoyancy by up to 0.3 metres. The shallow keel would need to be quite heavy to move the centre of gravity down to the waterline, but assume that for the best case, and to simplify a back of the envelope calculation. Two crew, steel keel and water ballast might add up to 300 kg, exerting a force of 2943 Newton on a lever arm of 0.3 m for a righting moment of 883 Nm. You wanted to sit side by side, not hiking out, so I assume the crew's weight doesn't shift.

    You have not shown any interest in non-heeling rigs, and seeing that I have only ever seen them in experimental boats and not one account of long-term experience using such a rig in everyday sailing, I guess that is for people who like to experiment. (I include kites here because they are still quite experimental on boats. Not the flying, but the launch and retrieval.)

    But if you choose a rig that heels the boat, you really need appropriate righting moment. Reefing is no substitute. To see why, think of how, in a steady state, the forces from all the bits of the boat in the water and all the bits in the air must exactly balance. One consequence is that if you convert the lift to drag ratios into the corresponding drag angles, then the course to the apparent wind is always the sum of the drag angles. It follows that the closest course you can hold to the apparent wind is defined by the drag angles that correspond to your best lift to drag ratios.

    Let's say that your rig and your foils can get a lift to drag ratio of 8 to 1. But then there is the aero drag of your hull. Let's say that is 1, so the overall lift to drag ratio is 8 to (1+1), or 4 to 1, corresponding to a drag angle of 14 degrees. Assume the same for all the bits in the water. Then the sum of drag angles is 28 degrees, which is the closest you can sail to the apparent wind, and is reasonable for a decent boat.

    Now assume you reef down to half the area. Relative to the sail area, the hull is now twice as big. So for every 8 units of lift and 1 unit of drag from the sail, you get 2 units of aero drag from the hull, so the best lift to drag ratio is now 8 to (1 + 2). That increases your best aero drag angle to 20 degrees. Heeling might make that still worse. You don't reef your lateral plan in the same fashion, but let's say that additional drag from heeling and sailing over waves has the same effect of adding one unit of drag, so your hydro drag angle is also 20 degrees. Now your best course to apparent wind is 40 degrees.

    But in 50 kn, you might have to reef down far more, say to one quarter of the sail area. And assume that the larger waves add another unit of drag. So for aero we have lift to drag of 8 to (1+4), for an aero drag angle of 32 degrees, and for hydro we have 8 to (1 + 3) for a hydro drag angle of 27 degrees. Now your best course to the apparent wind is 59 degrees. If you manage that at 3 kn, that gives you a velocity made good to windward of 1.5 kn. Wind-induced surface current could eat up much, perhaps even all of that.

    If you reduce the drive from your sail relative to the aero drag of your hull enough, you will not get to windward. If you impose the additional constraints of car-toppable and non-athletic, then you are looking for the maximum righting moment for a very limited weight, and you need to think about longitudinal stability as well as transverse. Two crew weigh more than a car-toppable boat, so their weight must be placed as far to windward as you can manage. If you don't want the crew to move about, windward must remain the same on both tacks, which gives you a proa. You could be sitting 4 metres to weather of the lee hull. Say 20 kg for ama and board, 150 kg for two crew, gives a force of 1668 N over a lever arm of 4 metres for a righting moment of 6672 Nm, over seven times as high as what you are considering. Look at Rob Denney's E25 for a boat in that size range: E25 – Harryproa http://harryproa.com/?p=2820 Build a storm rig, so you don't have all the drag of a lot of unused mast high up in 50 kn.

    For longitudinal stability, you can either go for a very long lee hull (you could build it in two easily handled halves that bolt together in the middle), or for beams that can swing towards either end. If you go for swinging beams, put most of the lateral area into the ama, so that wind forces in the lee hull and rig keep the boat unfolded. Guy Delage's proa Rosieres had no lateral resistance in the ama at all, and folded up at the start of a Route du Rhum (1982, I think) when he tried to swing the ama a little further back and the line slipped off the winch.

    Of course, if you capsize anyway, you have a problem. If you want a boat in the desired weight range that can be made self-righting with ballast, water or otherwise, you won't get the stability you would need to carry a heeling rig in 50 kn. Then you will need to think about non-heeling after all, perhaps a kite.
     
    Robert Biegler, Jun 28, 2023
    #44
    trip the light fandango and skaraborgcraft like this.
  15. seasquirt
    Joined: Dec 2015
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    seasquirt Senior Member

    Hi Robert, thanks for your post, that was a lot of info to digest. My thoughts have changed a little, thinking a solo yacht would be more useful, not needing to find a competent yet insane crew, and also boat size and weight considerations. I'm in a temperate climate, so hypothermia would take several hours to set in with clothed immersion, but it would happen eventually. The dry suit was an idea for maintaining some warm dry comfort, rather than initial survival, and a wet suit sounds cold already in a winter storm, but is an easy cheap option to adopt. A thick scuba suit may do for me.

    I was going for very small sails from the start, made for the strong winds and the hull size, so reefing would probably be minimal and comparable by ratio to a large yacht going down to its first or second reef; maybe a 1/4 or 1/3 area reduction, or a similar sized smaller sail substituted. In light winds it would need to be paddled to get anywhere probably, with a short mast and set of small sails. I've experienced a lack of speed made good under storm sails before, with a lot of hard work needed to get nowhere, so freeboard and cabin windage must be kept to a minimum as necessary. That's where water ballast will help, lowering freeboard a bit, and giving inertia for countering gusts a bit.

    1 crew 70Kg, + 30Kg keel + 100Kg water = ~ 200Kg, all central, no hiking = a very small mast and sail. May need 2 small masts and sails for power but want to avoid that.

    I hadn't considered a proa, but my size would be closer to 2m lever arm if I did, more beach cat sized, 4m beams is huge. Then you have twisting over lumpy crossed seas to contend with. Maybe a single beam spar resting on the middle of a pivoting cantilever ama which follows the wave contours a little under spring tension to reduce its stresses; lots of stress on a few points.

    With a monohull, the hull would need to hold ballast water just for mass inertia, rather than righting moment; and a steel plate board giving 20 - 30 Kg weight underneath, not much righting I know, but it must be easily man handled on land as well. More righting moment then a slalom canoe anyway, and that's where I'm sort of starting from. I expect that the deck will be awash with green water regularly, in order to lower freeboard windage, aero drag.

    It's probably a "Mission Impossible", but I'm still thinking, and the wind is still blowing 30Kn+ over 2m seas just down the road.
     
    seasquirt, Jul 5, 2023
    #45
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