Sloop verse Square Rig, Maltese Falcon vs Mirabella

Discussion in 'Sailboats' started by brian eiland, Jun 13, 2006.

  1. brian eiland
    Joined: Jun 2002
    Posts: 4,777
    Likes: 150, Points: 73, Legacy Rep: 1903
    Location: St Augustine Fl, Thailand

    brian eiland Senior Member

    How about a match race between two very different superyachts, one with a sloop rig, and the other with a 'modern' square rig.

    "MV" vs "MF" (Mirabella V verses Maltese Falcon) unofficial challenge
    http://www.yachtforums.com/forums/27531-post49.html

    The World's Three Largest
    http://www.yachtforums.com/forums/8815-post5.html

    Square Rig Pointing (some aero questions here)
    http://boatdesign.net/forums/showthread.php?t=5991
    regrettably this subject thread has been closed

    ...from the crew's diary...
    "There have been many questions about our sailing numbers. In looking through these data, we discovered that our best VMG occurs at around 35 degrees apparent. With full sails set, we may get pretty close to the 30 degrees predicted by the computer/wind tunnel tests. Another interesting aspect, is how the boat performance changes in gusts. Unlike essentially all other sail boats---except, perhaps the AeroRig--- which try to round-up in strong puffs, the Falcon with her DynaRig, simply accelerates, with no effect on the helm and no change in heading. There a number of reasons for this: the center of effort of the rig is relatively low; the keel is relatively long; but most important, there is no change in the shape of the sails. Other rigs tend for the boom to lift and the sail top to twist, which leads to an adverse change in the weather-helm."
     
  2. SeaSpark
    Joined: Mar 2006
    Posts: 593
    Likes: 17, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 96
    Location: Holland

    SeaSpark -

    Attached Files:

  3. brian eiland
    Joined: Jun 2002
    Posts: 4,777
    Likes: 150, Points: 73, Legacy Rep: 1903
    Location: St Augustine Fl, Thailand

    brian eiland Senior Member

    Old Technology

    Maltese Falcon, owned by US venture capitalist Tom Perkins, is using sail technology developed by the Germans 45 years ago called the Dynarig.

    Tom Perkins bought the research work, which was never taken to its conclusion, and has developed it for his new superyacht.

    The 1300-tonne yacht sets 15 square sails on three free standing rotating carbon fibre masts, has reportedly reached speeds in excess of 10 knots in true wind speeds of between 8 and 16 knots.

    Congradulations Tom Perkins
     
  4. DanishBagger
    Joined: Feb 2006
    Posts: 1,540
    Likes: 46, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 523
    Location: Denmark

    DanishBagger Never Again

    Okay, am I stupid for thinking that reaching 10 knots in wind speeds up to 16 knots aren't unheard of?

    To me, it sounds akin to saying "we can sail 10 knots in wind up to 16 knots. The "8" seems to be there because it sounds nicer, and/or, because the boat is heavy so when first accelarated it won't slow down immediately.

    Maybe I'm just a party pooper, though ...
     
  5. Paul Scott
    Joined: Sep 2004
    Posts: 303
    Likes: 8, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 84
    Location: Spokane, Wa

    Paul Scott Senior Member

    Any telltales anywhere on MF?
     
  6. SeaSpark
    Joined: Mar 2006
    Posts: 593
    Likes: 17, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 96
    Location: Holland

    SeaSpark -

    Doyle sails Maltese Falcon information

    http://www.doylesails.com/maltesefalcon.htm

     
  7. usa2
    Joined: Jan 2005
    Posts: 538
    Likes: 1, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 11
    Location: Maine

    usa2 Senior Member

    Shouldnt those things reach hull speed going upwind? I know Alfa Romeo and Wild Oats can do 14-15 knots upwind, and they are "only" 98.5 ft. (30m) long. If these superyachts waterlines are around 200+ feet, they should be able to sail upwind around 14 knots. Or am i missing something?
     
  8. SeaSpark
    Joined: Mar 2006
    Posts: 593
    Likes: 17, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 96
    Location: Holland

    SeaSpark -

    Cruiser / racer

    Maltese Falcon is a steel hulled hyper luxury mega yacht including jacuzzi 10+ plasma screens (i suspect) and so on. Alfa Romeo and Wild Oats are stripped down racers.
     
  9. usa2
    Joined: Jan 2005
    Posts: 538
    Likes: 1, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 11
    Location: Maine

    usa2 Senior Member

    well i knew that. But even an underpowered 40 foot cruiser can reach hullspeed upwind, so why cant these things?
     
  10. brian eiland
    Joined: Jun 2002
    Posts: 4,777
    Likes: 150, Points: 73, Legacy Rep: 1903
    Location: St Augustine Fl, Thailand

    brian eiland Senior Member

    Rail Down

    August 4 - Viareggio, Italy

    Today's Photo of the Day is of Tom Perkins' recently-launched Maltese Falcon sailing past the Perini Navi Shipyard in Italy at what Perkins estimates to be about 13 knots. He doesn't know for sure, because he was back in California when the photo was taken. "If I'd been aboard," he says, "I might not have let the crew put the rail under in that gust!" The boat is powered, of course, by the unique Dynarig, in which 15 square sails are set on three unstayed rotating masts.

    Later in the day, while between the Straits of Bonifacio that separates Corsica and Sardinia, Falcon hit 18.3 knots without much sail up. "The crew is waiting for me to return," says Perkins, "to use the check stays and then shoot for the 20-knot barrier for the first time."

    The amazing thing about this photograph, taken by Giuliano Sargentini for Perini Navi, is how nimble the boat looks - for being 289-ft long and displacing 1,240 tons! She is, you'll remember, the largest privately-owned sailing yacht in the world. Falcon is available for charter at 335,000 euros a week, but if you were thinking about New Year's in the Caribbean, she's already booked for that popular time period

    Photo Courtesy Perini Navi
     

    Attached Files:

  11. tspeer
    Joined: Feb 2002
    Posts: 2,171
    Likes: 142, Points: 63, Legacy Rep: 1673
    Location: Port Gamble, Washington, USA

    tspeer Senior Member

    Maybe she can foot off fast enough to achieve the maximum Vmg for 35 deg apparent, which would require she do 80% of wind speed at 62 deg to the true wind. That would give her a Vmg 37% of the true wind speed.

    If she's doing, say, 55 degrees to the true wind, her boat speed is 60% of the true wind and her Vmg is 34%.

    I don't find that very impressive. One only has to go to windward at 30 deg apparent and 45 deg to the true wind - a boat speed just over 50% of true wind speed - to beat it. I can beat her to windward in my F-24!
     
  12. Guillermo
    Joined: Mar 2005
    Posts: 3,644
    Likes: 184, Points: 63, Legacy Rep: 2247
    Location: Pontevedra, Spain

    Guillermo Ingeniero Naval

    Maybe she's not an excellent performer, but I wouldn't mind to own her....:)
     
  13. tom perkins
    Joined: Aug 2006
    Posts: 3
    Likes: 2, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 19
    Location: California

    tom perkins New Member

    Falcon Figures

    The performance numbers for the Maltese Falcon are still being explored. The polars indicate the possibility of really excellent up wind VMG, when full warer ballast (50 tons) and dagger board are used. In 25 knots true, the VMG upwind is predicted to be 10.25 knots, which would best all the other big yachts, including the J class boats---but posssibly not Mirabella V, if she dared to set her full sails.

    We haven't yet had this wind in smooth water, and our dagger board is not yet manufactured, so it will be a while before we know how close we can eventually come to the predictions. Meanwhile the crew is sailing the yacht every day. The falcon is easily sailed on ond off her anchor, as readily as the old clippers without engines. She handles very easily, tacking in under two minutes and gybing in much less. Full sail is deployed in five point five minutes---the furling time is the same.

    The yacht's first race will be in September in Sardinia, at the Perini Cup regatta. T.P.
     
    1 person likes this.
  14. Leif HerrGesell
    Joined: Aug 2006
    Posts: 9
    Likes: 2, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 15
    Location: New York

    Leif HerrGesell Junior Member

    Form Over Function?

    Debating the obvious merits or demerits of a unique vessel that is in a class by itself is an exercise in ego. Those that attack innovation seldom have the courage to stand alone. We all desireto be right and want to say - "I told you so. . ." Personnaly I find the Maltese Falcon a singularily bizarre combination of aesthetics. It appears according to her owner and crew that she manages herself well and wishing her ill as many do is a sad statement about their own character. If the debate were one of form over function then I would err on the side of form. Mr. Perkins would err on the side of function and in a race he would most likely win. He doesn't seem to me to be a guy who loses much.

    MF already seems to have survived her sea trials. Anything she accomplishes at this point is not going to change the minds of those who have decided to revile her for not being fore and aft rigged or because they don't care for the placement of her upperworks.

    I hope she sets new records and if she doesn't it will in no way effect life as we know it. She is always- just a yacht. Man will always sail and men will always build boats.

    Just the opinon of a sailor and a non designer.

    That said, a match up between MF and MV would be fascinating!
     
    1 person likes this.

  15. westlawn5554X
    Joined: Aug 2006
    Posts: 1,333
    Likes: 31, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 355
    Location: home lazy n crazy

    westlawn5554X STUDENT

    Great insight:) I have jot down on my notebook. Its the spirit that we always forsaken for the price of Numbers.

    Student
     
Loading...
Forum posts represent the experience, opinion, and view of individual users. Boat Design Net does not necessarily endorse nor share the view of each individual post.
When making potentially dangerous or financial decisions, always employ and consult appropriate professionals. Your circumstances or experience may be different.