Slocum`s Spray

Discussion in 'Sailboats' started by Elmo, Dec 19, 2009.

  1. sharpii2
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    sharpii2 Senior Member

    I suppose, back in the days of working sail, boats were considered as cars and trucks are today. When the cost of repair exceeds the cost of building a new one, a new one gets built.

    The old one can be scuttled to become part of a spawning reef, rather than be left to rot.
     
  2. BATAAN
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    BATAAN Senior Member

    Yeah, the more you do/find yourself the less $$. One could build the vessel for very little if on free or very low cost land, next to water so easy to launch, cutting trees for keel and ends and getting these to shape with chain saw (I love my electric one), broadax, adz and power plane, having a local mill cut the planking stock a year ahead of time, cutting planks to shape with a skil saw so you don't need a helper, avoiding glue and other things that are costly and require controlled conditions, and just generally learning to think like a fairly poverty stricken builder of 1890 who needed a nice little ship. The biggest obstacle to building one of these is not the money, it's un-learning so much of modern attitudes and re-learning those of the past.
    Here we see a couple of guys building a nice little schooner in the woods under very primitive conditions. This is how you keep things cheap; by having no shop, no machinery, no rent.
     

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  3. BATAAN
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    BATAAN Senior Member

    Precisely. The guys driving long haul trucks today were the coastal cargo sailors of 150 years ago. The same classes of goods, from industrial machinery to socks to toys, moved by water a lot more then, and the small ships like schooners, sloops and such, mostly under 100 ton capacity, did the work.
     
  4. goodwilltoall
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    goodwilltoall Senior Member

    Seems obvious, but its a profound insight to me "When the cost of repairs exceeds the cost of building a new one, a new one get built" and also the fact of the old ships preceeding the trucks today as the movers of goods.

    That reminds of http://vermontsailfreightproject.wordpress.com/, based upon the triloboats. They could be so cheap to build and get 5-10 years of life and then build new hull.

    The old way you built Bertie is good but, that type of wood is no longer available at a reasonable cost. Alternative and more cost efficient build methods are out there but, big trucks and big containers ships are priced better at moving things so the effort to design and build little freight ships is lacking.
     
  5. sharpii2
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    sharpii2 Senior Member

    I agree, but trying to find a location that meets that requirement is all but out of the question. Water front property, you know.

    When I was living in Maine, I met a local up and coming politician who told me the lobster men had to move miles inland because their previous water front property commanded too high of a tax assessment. ('Summer people').

    Other than that, there are ways.
    Not for a poor man, but perhaps a middle class one (as the 19th century boatmen probably were).

    I don't know if you are familiar with George Buehler's work. He describes how to build a boat pretty much the old fashioned way, but with a heavy chined hull instead of a round bottom one. He likes using salvaged wood from torn down buildings and, perhaps fallen down barns. He advocates using more ordinary construction materials, such as galvanized steel, concrete, rebar, and roofing cement rather than more expensive 'marine' stuff, such as bronze, lead, and epoxy.

    I have thought of scaling up my LOLA design to 8 by 35ft. Then it would displace roughly six tons, two of which could be stores and equipment. It would be able to carry another ton and a half on top of that.

    My LOLA design is intended for simple construction out of what may be less than first class materials. All the bends are easy and all the curves are co-planer. Though she is light for her Length, she is heavy for her Beam.

    If carefully designed, she would fit into a 40 ft cargo container without having to remove her twin keels or even her rig.

    Though proportionately the antithesis of BERTIE, she would be pretty much built to the same philosophy.
     

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  6. BATAAN
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    BATAAN Senior Member

    BERTIE is going for a test sail tomorrow, thursday, after two months of bloody-knuckle rig overhaul. All are invited. Port Townsend WA boat haven, linear dock, 11am.
     

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  7. sharpii2
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    sharpii2 Senior Member

    Congratulations!
     
  8. troy2000
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    troy2000 Senior Member

    Wish I could be there, but it's a long drive. :)
     
  9. JosephT
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    JosephT Senior Member

    Dido, long drive for me too Bataan. If you're doing any west coast cruising in 2014 or beyond feel free to put me on your list of potential crew contacts. I am well into my ASA certs & ready to roll. Love big water too.
     
  10. BATAAN
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    BATAAN Senior Member

    BERTIE went out yesterday with me and Sugar John Flanagan, captain of schooner ALCYONE, and we had a great sail in PT Bay. Wind 5-15 S, very cold with ice on deck and a clear sky. All worked well and the new rake seems to help the balance. Sailor Jerry rum was enjoyed.
     
  11. MasalaChai
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    MasalaChai Junior Member

    Congratulations on first sail of the year. Envious! Would have loved to be there but its a heck of a long way from S India! Any photos?
    Good luck with the Vancouver Island trip.
    By the way is there anyone around there with an Islander like Harry Pidgeon's?
     
  12. BATAAN
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    BATAAN Senior Member

    Thanks MC - Sorry, I was busy and so no photos. No Islanders right now but some years ago a modified one, ZULU, was built here and cruised the South Pacific. It was nicely finished and sold for a ridiculous high price after the trip.
     
  13. oithona
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    oithona New Member

    Bertie's Junk Main

    Just found this thread and read through it - really fascinating, particularly Bataan's contributions. I have built a BR 33 Spray in the past, but became disenchanted with it when I finished the steelwork and started fitting it out. Sold it, and am currently working on a multi-chine design based on Spray's original lines (courtesy Michael Kasten's web site) and keeping as close to the original as possible given the obvious limitations of the materials/method.

    I envision a junk rig, and have sketched out a schooner layout with main/foresail at 60:40 totalling 1200 sq ft, which is what I reckon it will take to drive this lump. I note that Bertie has a similar sized spread, albeit differently arranged. What I wondered was how is it handling 1000 sq ft of main? - can it be done single-handed. This was the issue which led to my choice of schooner rig, but I am open to alternatives. Any advice appreciated.
     
  14. sharpii2
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    sharpii2 Senior Member

    I think you will find dealing with a large Chinese Lug is a whole different experience than dealing with a large western style sail. The Chinese Lug can be feathered into the wind without flogging itself to pieces. It is also very easy to reef, with mean old Mr. Gravity doing most of the work.

    Which Brings me to the down side. That type of sail, with all its boomlets (called battens) weighs quite a bit and a 1,000 sf version is going to need a considerable mechanical advantage to raise. This will mean a multi part halyard, a winch, or a combination of the two. If you are going to do this manually, it will take you some time to raise the sail.

    Your schooner plan is a good idea, but suffers two problems:

    1.) it may not be as efficient as BERTIE's yawl rig, because most of BERTIE's sail area is in one large sail, where your rig would be more evenly divided, and

    2.) The main mast may very well intrude on any living space below. This is the main reason ketches and yawls dominate in smaller cruising sailboat rigs with multiple masts.

    The schooner is likely more efficient than a ketch in more traditional rigged boats with a similar split between the larger and smaller sail. This definitely was not true with more modern racing boats (1930's onward), which could carry large jibs effectively.

    If you can work your cabin space to accommodate the large main mast, the schooner, with the 40/60 fore/main split may be the better deal for a single handed boat, as the largest sail will be less heavy. The largest sail is quite far aft, where the motion is likely to be the least extreme, so raising and lowering it in rough conditions may be easier. Also, you may have the advantage of only having to lower the smaller fore sail when stopping for short periods of time, such as to take on boarders. This is why the schooner was popular for dory fishing and coastal trading in the U.S.A.
     

  15. sharpii2
    Joined: May 2004
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    Location: Michigan, USA

    sharpii2 Senior Member

    I think you will find dealing with a large Chinese Lug is a whole different experience than dealing with a large western style sail. The Chinese Lug can be feathered into the wind without flogging itself to pieces. It is also very easy to reef, with mean old Mr. Gravity doing most of the work.

    Which Brings me to the down side. That type of sail, with all its boomlets (called battens) weighs quite a bit and a 1,000 sf version is going to need a considerable mechanical advantage to raise. This will mean a multi part halyard, a winch, or a combination of the two. If you are going to do this manually, it will take you some time to raise the sail.

    Your schooner plan is a good idea, but suffers two problems:

    1.) it may not be as efficient as BERTIE's yawl rig, because most of BERTIE's sail area is in one large sail, where your rig would be more evenly divided, and

    2.) The main mast may very well intrude on any living space below. This is the main reason ketches and yawls dominate in smaller cruising sailboat rigs with multiple masts.

    The schooner is likely more efficient than a ketch in more traditional rigged boats with a similar split between the larger and smaller sail. This definitely was not true with more modern racing boats (1930's onward), which could carry large jibs effectively.

    If you can work your cabin space to accommodate the large main mast, the schooner, with the 40/60 fore/main split may be the better deal for a single handed boat, as the largest sail will be less heavy. The largest sail is quite far aft, where the motion is likely to be the least extreme, so raising and lowering it in rough conditions may be easier. Also, you may have the advantage of only having to lower the smaller fore sail when stopping for short periods of time, such as to take on boarders. This is why the schooner was popular for dory fishing and coastal trading in the U.S.A.
     
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