Slickest folder ever

Discussion in 'Multihulls' started by garydierking, Jan 14, 2012.

  1. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

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    Richard, this sounds like an exciting boat! Will it be designed to fly the main hull or use lifting foils? I'm interested in hearing more details. Good luck!
     
  2. Richard Woods
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    Richard Woods Woods Designs

    Probably not lifting foils, at least not at first. And I'm not a good enough boatbuilder to make them anyway. Although they would allow me to sail in Franks 4in of water.....

    I don't believe in doing too many new ideas at the same time.

    Richard Woods

    www.sailingcatamarans.com
     
  3. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

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    Thanks Richard! I hope you'll publish more details when you can.....
     
  4. themanshed
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    themanshed Senior Member

    Great chair I have the same one in my shop! I was thinking of making a mold from it for my TRi!
     
  5. Manfred.pech
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    Manfred.pech Senior Member

    Torture

    DrFrank your last words about stressing plywood were:

    This caused me to make a 1/1 model with bendable plywood (4,5mm), which was no problem at all. The plywood was to be formed very easy without any torture or stress. I didn`t need wire only a little tape and some clamps.

    The only concern is that you need a jig (http://www.thebeachcats.com/pictures/?g2_itemId=11123) to avoid too much flexibility.

    TorturedPlyBendable22222.jpg TorturedPly22222Bendable.jpg
     
  6. DIY Tri Guy
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    DIY Tri Guy Junior Member

    That's a very pretty hull, Manfred. It doesn't look all that tortured. Very nice, smooth curves. I have vaka envy :) I may have just gotten a bad batch of 3mm okoume from Noah's. Definitely won't shop there again. It's all rippley as well as not able to be tortured much. My model was balsa, and took the compound curves just fine. But this $50 okoume is no better -- or lighter -- than the $11 lauan doorskins I usually use. In fact, the doorskins hold a much fairer curve, don't get ripples or waves, and are probbaly stronger than the okoume. So it's back to doorskins for me!
     
  7. tom28571
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    tom28571 Senior Member

    Brilliant idea!!

    On balance I think your geometry is best. It is easy to insert some pins to lock the akas in place. The main advantage, other than launching stability, is that the amas are in the best position well forward to prevent nose diving under sail. This is where many tris come to grief sailing off the wind in gusts. I might worry about that with the mast and CE so far forward.

    How do you rate your mast raising system relative to a tabernacle?
     
  8. DIY Tri Guy
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    DIY Tri Guy Junior Member

    I have never used a tabernacle, so I really can't compare. But my goal was to be able to do everything from the comfort of my cockpit seat. Depoly and retract the amas, raise and lower the rig... On that score, I think it beats a tabernackle hands down. Plus, I can raise and lower the mast anywhere at any time -- to go under a bridge, for example. I use a brailing line to bunch up the sail prior to lowering it. Works great.
    The CE is perfect for this boat. Believe me, having built so many boats that ended up with unbalanced helms, getting the CE / CLR relationship right is now always a primary design consideration. And on this boat, it's actually adjustable in two ways -- with mast angle and leeboard angle (the replacement hull I'm making does have a leeboard, though the original hull as seen in the videos does not). I have not seen the need to lock the amas in place with pins. The lines going to the clam cleats are actually under very little strain, even when the ama is buried. (It was a simple matter to determine this just by reaching out and feeling the tension on the line.)
    Anyway, the new "replacement" hull for this boat is now complete and ready for seat trials...as soon as the weather cooperates. Initial hull testing will be done with my old bolt-on akas and amas, and the freestanding mast & sail from Laura's boat. Once I am sure the hull is "worthy," I will then transplant the folding amas and E-Z-Up mast & sail rig. (I'll soon have photos of it all on my web site, and hopefull some new videos as well.)
    Cheers - Frank
     
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  9. tom28571
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    tom28571 Senior Member

    Frank,

    I think that perhaps you don't give a tabernacle its due credit. These can be dead simple devices to do the very job you have and can be operated in the same way as yours. I'm not knocking your novel solution, just asking if alternatives have been considered.

    I was not questioning your balance of CE/CLR at all. My comment had to do with with the lee ama burying and causing a pitch pole if they swung opposite to the way you are doing yours. I think your geometry is superior.

    I suspect the friction caused by the righting moment of the ama locks the aka in place and that is why there is no tension on the lines. Still, there are things to hit or big waves to encounter at speed and I would want the safety of locking pins. I do remember hitting a submerged rock and having my centerboard hold down line actually strip the outer braid off the cleated line. That caused only embarrassment at my poor planning but on your boat, it would be a much bigger problem.

    Anyway, I'm often called a natural cynic but I like your approach to engineering problems.
     
  10. DIY Tri Guy
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    DIY Tri Guy Junior Member

    Hi Tom - I really don't mean to say anything unpleasant about tabernacles. As I noted above, I've never used one. My point is that I've never seen one where the mast & sail can both be raised and lowered from the comfort of your seat in the cockpit. If such a tabernacle exists, I hope somebody will let me know!
    I understand your natural cynicism. I am from the same school. I went with the aft-folding amas primarily based on the fact that the bow of an ama should be (at least) as far forward as the bow of the main hull when deployed. If they folded forward from that position, it would make for very awkward trailering, launching, etc. But I do stand by my contention that the line and clam cleat combo is more than adequate to prevent problems. The friction cause by the righting moment is virtually nonexistent in this design, as all contact points have large plastic washers or plates. I can easily (and very carefully) move the ama fore and aft at 10 mph.
    Keep that healthy cynicism alive and well!
    - Frank
     
  11. Richard Woods
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    Richard Woods Woods Designs

    I thought the opposite

    Having the outriggers move forward means the mainhull is further aft on the trailer. So the car doesn't need to get so near the water when launching. I plan to rig the boat before launching, which may mean you back the trailer into the water differently from what I will do (assuming I don't cartop my design)

    I have used clam cleats a lot on dinghies and seen them unexpectedly uncleat themselves far too often (usually after a season when they get worn). So I would never use them to hold the outriggers in position. Better would be cam cleat, best a Spinlock camcleat

    http://www.mauriprosailing.com/Spinlock-PXR-Cam-Cleat/SPIPXR0206.html

    But why use a cleat at all? I assume the outrigger always goes to the same position, so why not a rope loop and a peg?

    Currently I am Lake Havasu for the HPCC, see sailhavasu.com

    maybe you should bring your boat here next year??

    Richard Woods of Woods Designs

    www.sailingcatamarans.com
     
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  12. DIY Tri Guy
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    DIY Tri Guy Junior Member

    Hi Richard - I certainly understand your logic. But I definitely want three contact points of the boat hitting the water all at once, which provides much more stability during this critical launch time.
    - Re the clam cleats, I favor them because (a) they provide infinite adjustability to compensate for the inevitable line stretching, and (b) because they are very quick to use, and (c) because you can free the line from them immediately and completely to close them. And being used only once per outing, they will likely last decades before they show any wear. And by then, the boat will be in a landfill somewhere :)
    - That's a great looking cleat, the spinlock, and I may well be able to use it in other applications. Never saw one before, thanks.
    - Lake Havasu sounds great, but it's a good 2000 miles from the Tampa Bay area-- a bit far to haul a trailer. Maybe you can come to one of the many Florida meetups?
    - Cheers - Frank
     
  13. Richard Woods
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    Richard Woods Woods Designs

    We had to travel over 1500 miles to get to Lake Havasu. That makes it 3500 miles to get to you (each way). We'll see.

    The plan for next years HPCC is to get more multihulls and more home builders. And maybe make it a 10 day event to include Presidents day. There were 350 people this year and nearly 200 boats. Almost certainly more next year

    I showed your launching video during my talk. People were very impressed

    So maybe you and Ray should get together and both come to Havasu next year

    Richard Woods of Woods Designs

    www.sailingcatamarans.com
     
  14. DIY Tri Guy
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    DIY Tri Guy Junior Member

    Well I guess I'd understand if you didn't make it down here. Where exactly do you live?
    Wow, that's a lot of boats and people. Nothing on that scale I'm aware of in FL.
    It's great that the video was well received. I'm not really familiar with what happens at Lake Havasu. Do you have a site or link I could check out? Haven't heard from Ray for a while, and I'm not sure where lives either. But hauling a trailer 3500 miles -- both ways -- could be quite a project!

    Frank - www.DIY-Tris.com
     

  15. Richard Woods
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    Richard Woods Woods Designs

    I am British, but we have a summer house in the PNW so I spend much of my time there. Our Strike was built in Canada.

    You can see more on the Havasu PCC here. You'll see on the forum page that a number of people are now stuck in snow on their way home. The furthest anybody trailed was 2800 miles each way

    www.sailhavasu.com

    Richard Woods of Woods Designs

    www.sailingcatamarans.com
     
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