Skin-on-frame canoe/kayak plan help

Discussion in 'Boat Design' started by Ruming Jiang, Mar 8, 2021.

  1. Ruming Jiang
    Joined: Mar 2021
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    Location: Vancouver BC Canada

    Ruming Jiang Junior Member

    I thought about foldable but was convinced takedown would be a better choice. One of the reasons is the repeated stress on the folding lines/points as you mentioned. There are a couple of other reasons that make foldable plans less ideal.
     
  2. Ruming Jiang
    Joined: Mar 2021
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    Ruming Jiang Junior Member

    Those are very good plans. I was surprised by many of the innovations I found along the way.

    The thing I didn't find in Yost's is a canoe and a tandem kayak. I'm not saying he should have done them though.

    Vinyl is good but probably not light enough.
     
  3. messabout
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    messabout Senior Member

    RJ the pevious respondents are knowledgeable, experienced people who know what they are talking about. DO yourself a huge favor and take their advice. Buy a set of plans and use the materials specified by the designer. That is doubly true of the boats that have been built and proven over the many years.
     
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  4. portacruise
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    portacruise Senior Member

    If you are open to other lighter and more compact possibilities when collapsed than SOF,

    DIY Packraft – The homemade packraft how-to site & shop https://www.diypackraft.com/

    This is also a well tested tech with many more choices of possible designs, and performance data and ratings are more easily available on many pre built boats. Some versions are well under 2 pounds and 5.5" x 14" volume, when folded.

    Fits SOR post #7.
     
    Last edited: Mar 9, 2021
  5. upchurchmr
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    upchurchmr Senior Member

    George Dyson is the other designer. He no longer offers his plans for sale, but I asked about an aluminum tube framed boat and he sent me some material to let me see if I wanted to build.
    He is in Bellingham, Washington as I recall.

    By the way, SOF is really by definition a similar shape to a plywood multichine kayak, due to the stringers defining flat (but bent) hull panels.
    You really cannot get a round bilged hull from SOF. Although you could put more stringers in until you approached round.
     
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  6. upchurchmr
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    upchurchmr Senior Member

    I built a tandem Yost kayak for a friend. You should have found it. Around 19 or 20 feet.

    Like many people, he found that his wife was not as interested as he was after a short time. He probably should have gotten two singles.
     
  7. Ruming Jiang
    Joined: Mar 2021
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    Location: Vancouver BC Canada

    Ruming Jiang Junior Member

    Exactly.
     
  8. Ruming Jiang
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    Location: Vancouver BC Canada

    Ruming Jiang Junior Member

    A canoe may work better or at least a tandem kayak
     
  9. Ruming Jiang
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    Ruming Jiang Junior Member

    Thanks for sharing. Excellent design for backpacking. I'll likely get one for myself.
     
  10. gonzo
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    gonzo Senior Member

    I disagree that it doesn't help. Learning to ask the right questions is the only way to get useful answers. If you claim to have no knowledge of boat design, then start by the basics. You set a constraint by requiring a material you already have has to be used for the boat. There is nothing wrong with that, except that there is a conflict with the constraint of skin on frame constraint. That is what we call the "design spiral". When two constraints are in conflict, you have to decide which one has to be deleted or modified. At times, both may get deleted or modified. That is a personal choice.
     
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  11. Ruming Jiang
    Joined: Mar 2021
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    Location: Vancouver BC Canada

    Ruming Jiang Junior Member

    I'm in no position to doubt the knowledge and experience of any respondent. It's just about finding the solution or best alternative to my specific problem.

    Thanks for being open and direct. I hope this helps to clarify:

    1. Whether to find a solution (when it likely exists), or delete the constraints, or eliminate the person who talks about the problem, is a personal choice when it comes to problem-solving. I'm the first type, you are the 2nd, and hopefully there is no 3rd type here (lol).

    2. There are always hidden constraints behind a problem. I'd always be cautious before giving a suggestion that may go beyond any possible hidden constraints, instead of assuming some constraints are deletable to another person.

    In this case, I'm looking for a takedown (foldable/inflatable whichever transportable in a Corrola/Civic trunk), lightweight (<~20lb), inexpensive (<~$300), easy to make (<2hr or ready to play), easy to use (<~15min assembly), multiperson (2~4) canoe/kayak that paddles reasonably well (like a hardshell) in Class A, I and II water, with accessible materials.
     
  12. upchurchmr
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    upchurchmr Senior Member

    Nothing I have ever seen meets any of your requirements.
    My personal opinion is that you should read some more science-fiction.

    Good luck.
    Of course, no one will get there without trying, so I hope you will publish your solution - even if you have to compromise on some of the requirements.

    Marc
     
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  13. Robert Biegler
    Joined: Jun 2017
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    Location: Trondheim

    Robert Biegler Junior Member

    I don't think that exists.
    I have seen a picture of a 7 metre long 4 person folding kayak. Out of your eight requirements, that would give you:
    1) takedown
    5) quick assembly (after enough practice)
    6) multiperson
    7) paddles well
    I expect it would weigh 50 - 60 kg (110 - 132 lbs), would be expensive, and you could not easily build it yourself.

    You could build a coracle:
    That would give you:
    1) takedown
    3) inexpensive
    Either 4) easy to make or 5) less than 15 minutes assembly
    6) multiperson
    8) accessible materials

    The faster you want the assembly to be, the more thought and effort you have to put into the build. (woodenwidget.com's Fliptail dinghy designs would give you very fast assembly, and might carry four people, but not in white water, and would take longer to build.) A coracle's weight might be modest, but less than 20 lbs and carrying up to four people in white water may not be possible even with the most sophisticated materials, never mind also creating a shape that paddles well. If you are willing to put in the building time, then Fliptail or the DIYpackraft that portacruise suggested probably come closest to what you want. I would not want to take either into even mild white water, especially not with four people.
     
  14. portacruise
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    portacruise Senior Member

    I did see a couple of 2 man inflatable canoes on Amazon that meet everything listed @ #26, except the "paddles like a hardshell" part, 3 man inflatable canoes are over 30 lbs weight, might be heavier than that for SOF versions. Maybe order one of those to get a feeling of what's involved, as they have free 30 day returns, RJ? If you can live with an inflatable, there is a kit for a 2 man canoe on "DIY" weighing 7 lbs or so. How many paddling stations are needed on the multiples?

    https://www.amazon.com/Intex-Explor...eywords=4 person kayak&qid=1615312164&sr=8-19

    RJ, Does a SOF paddle like "hardshell" , or what is the closest existing hardshell that meets your SOR, except for weight? Maybe a rental boat and U haul would work, if you don't plan to use these canoes very much?

    Hope this helps.
     

  15. Ruming Jiang
    Joined: Mar 2021
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    Location: Vancouver BC Canada

    Ruming Jiang Junior Member

    That's the point to come to a boat design forum rather than buy/sell market.

    Class 2 might be a stretch. I'd be pretty happy with flatwater and Class 1.
     
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