Size limits of BIG wooden ships? (global strength issues/why not use metal frames)

Discussion in 'Boat Design' started by big_dreamin, Jan 4, 2014.

  1. gonzo
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    gonzo Senior Member

    The containers are not structurally integral to the ship. You should read up on some Naval architecture. The containers lock with each other to prevent shifting though. Also,"almost certain" is not proof but an uninformed opinion. Further, most modern ships are not aesthetically appealing to me either, but they fulfill their purpose and generate a profit.
     
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  2. PAR
    Joined: Nov 2003
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    PAR Yacht Designer/Builder

    Gonzo, it appears this fellow doesn't have a solid engineering or other related background, though does like to question the almost unquestionable, with simplistic questions, showing his expertise. When he gets to drinking age in his state, maybe he'll have enough collage time in him, to look back at this and have a laugh.
     
  3. chinaseapirate

    chinaseapirate Previous Member

    wow... glad your laughing. Of coarse, you're "uninformed opinion" of certain related backgrounds and ages is just that. You're not that far off base (except for the age). I dropped out of UCSD as an undergrad pre-engineering major, have a construction background (C-15 flooring specialty license), already a lifetime's worth of it maritime related, and only sold 1 of my dozen or so owner/design builds at a small fraction of what I put into it, which wasn't much. I've met other yacht designer/builders but maybe you big wigs of never heard of any of them... I knew Michael Linneman aka "minette". I consider myself a better designer and w/my crew of Filipino carpenters included a better builder. I know the real story of how he was involved in a "sea rescue operation" during the multihull transpac race including who built the boat -forgot the name - looked just like minette lightweight ply racer/cruiser catamaran but yellow - "Chantarelle" maybe somethin C related-and that the boat suffered serious cracked ribs and was taking on water. I knew Mike Kane, I raced around Catalina and back to Newport, Ca on "Crusader" before he lengthened it and sort of rounded Cape Horn. I briefly met Gino Morelli one afternoon. My father and I were shopping for a new racing cat, IMUA, our boat that Linneman pawned off on us wasn't competitive any longer. Gino showed us some core samples of "the best" foam laminated with kevlar and E-glass. He was working on a big overgrown beach cat 48 feet I think it was. Osborne 48 or something then it got renamed. It won a few Ensanada races once completed. I convinced my father that we weren't interested and that with the Gougeon book a 1/3 the budget we could build a bigger better transpac catamaran than Morelli or even Rudy Choy (never met him- great "uneducated racing designer with no "at sea rescues" to his name). Then I did my college stint. Wasn't for me Started making more money than I could have made had I graduated as an engineer by installing wood and vinyl flooring.
    Then I went to the Philippines and started building fishing boats.Boat building knowledge there is extensive but completely undocumented. Incredible designs, and even though they are trimarans, their main hull dimensions are finer, more like a single cat hull. Very light very strong. Unsinkable. Countless documented encounters of fisherman with mechanical failures caught in tropical storms on up to super typhoons returning to shore after the storm. Lucky they have warm water. Its been 30 years since and I haven't been able to get one all the way back to California. Last attempt 15 years ago met with failure in Saipan, CNMI. Wasn't the boats fault. It effortlessly motored through 6-10 trade wind swells weather at 10 knots. Started to pitch and shake a "bit" uncomfortably past that. It could do 17 straight into the chop with 30 knots of wind in its face, that is the highest average the $50 magellan GPS read...take for what it is. It 67 LWL with DLR of 24 unloaded 60+ loaded. probably about 31 on the trip from Romblon to Saipan. It got 4 knots per gallon with a 5.7L 6 cylinder diesel running at 900 rpm at 8.5 knots in fourth gear, it had 5. dropped it into 3rd and would rev up and do 18 knots flat water. 2nd it would luch like a 22 ft outboard boat but redlined. Reverse was ridiculous. I'm really a sailor but motorboats are a lot cheaper and easier to design for me. Less than $10,000 2003 prices. the surplus japanese diesel alone was 240 bucks with transmission. Y'all keep treating me like a fish...fine, but I ain't biting until Nigel Irens himself wants to tell me I don't know **** from shinola.

    Next "yacht/ship" for me, or anyone else who doesn't want to pay "establablishments" exorbitant prices - basically twice the length of this picture, bamboo composite, plastic outriggers, diesel/electric drive and no trees felled.
    [​IMG]
    I like dream symphony also....but why pay 50 million dollars for a toy, if you can have the same performance and pay a profession crew full time for the next 30 years for 750 grand. yeah - 8 times the size of boat in the picture.
     
    Last edited: Apr 5, 2018
  4. chinaseapirate

    chinaseapirate Previous Member

    browser lost the picture...
     
  5. chinaseapirate

    chinaseapirate Previous Member

  6. gonzo
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    gonzo Senior Member

    Renderings are cool, but they are not a boat.
     
  7. PAR
    Joined: Nov 2003
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    PAR Yacht Designer/Builder

    Obviously you haven't performed any market research on this sort of this too, as I can't see much more than a hand to mouth existence, given the extremely small market share that would enjoy.
     
  8. chinaseapirate

    chinaseapirate Previous Member

    Well, who does that stop? Unless the Dream Symphony rendering was put together with phoney baloney in 10 minutes or less, they don't care either. They had eight years to improve their rendering. I read the whole schmeel. 10 pages and they didn't even put the lightship weight.
    I truly have a ...looking for the word...like racist but not race....well like Rebs vs Yankees... incredulity toward East Coasters. Honestly, out on the west coast there is so much less group consensus among cliques mentality. I know you think your correct. I believe your probably correct that no "upper crust" would be caught dead in that "monstrosity", at least in the BRITISH DOMINATED Atlantic, and I could only sell it to a vulgarian. But I don't need market research. If I showed up in King Harbor (redondo beach,ca) having motored that yacht (you tube documented) 6500 knots all the way from PI and put a big gaudy banner on it MUST SELL 115,000 WILL TAKE PAYMENTS I believe it would be gone in less than a week. If not, I'm stuck on it catching mackerel 1/4 mile outside the marina entrance for 30 days. I could try Long Beach and San Diego if I didn't want to wait the 30 days. I know I could find a "paying watchdog" for it on craigslist within hours if I really had to get off the boat and go drive my truck for money. Say i had to sell it for much lower but CASH? Hell I could probably ... we are way off topic. I'm done with long wooden ships for a while and it doesn't look like "big dreamin" is around anymore. Join the "Filipino style trimaran thread". I can behave in company.
     
  9. gonzo
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    gonzo Senior Member

    It stops the people that make fantastic claims. You are engaging in personal attacks instead of providing any proof that your claims have any validity.
     
  10. chinaseapirate

    chinaseapirate Previous Member

    I am totally confused as to line of reasoning. Are your two sentences connected in any particular way?
     
  11. gonzo
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    gonzo Senior Member

    Yes, they are addressed to you
     
  12. chinaseapirate

    chinaseapirate Previous Member

    I attacked perceived cliquish attitudes. I gave my opinion on the "worth and substance" as to taking insight of wood ship construction from literature provided along with their rendering of a 450+ ft wooden sailing ship 2010. Lets see... I don't remember anything else particularly negative. Is it just this thread in particular? I've been reading a lot of posts, if I think I can help I write something. You seem to be a sharp cookie, I run across your posts frequently. Are we still talking about the "strength" of steel vs wood? What claims?
     
  13. gonzo
    Joined: Aug 2002
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    gonzo Senior Member

    In just about all your posts, your are insulting and dismissive of professionals that have spent years studying, designing and building. Your claims are that everybody is clueless about engineering and you can design something superior. However, you have not shown a single ship built to your designs. Neither have you shown any calculations, tests or values to back your claims. Finally, you claim that using computers for calculations is wrong and generates a lesser quality product, without offering any proof.
     
  14. abrogard
    Joined: Apr 2012
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    abrogard Junior Member

    Hi... thanks for all your stimulating input to this thread.

    I came here in the course of a search for information on the feasibility of building large (i.e. longer than say 300metres) wooden boats.

    Which search could include this thread's question regarding the inclusion of steel frames.

    I find your input very interesting and spirited and I'd like to appeal to you for more if you have more... and are still watching one year later?

    As for the attacks on you just prior to your leaving the thread (apparently) - claiming that you make 'personal attacks' - as an impartial observer it seems to me quite clear that the whole thread got tainted by personal animus by that attack itself. Prior to it we had a pleasant exercise in exploring shipbuilding.

    Please don't be put off by it. Tell us more if you have more to tell. Your text is thought provoking, full of interest and stimulus. It is a shame to see you 'put down' like that. Please don't allow it.

    :)
     
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  15. TANSL
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    TANSL Senior Member

    In ships of great length the structural problems depend not so much on how strong the transverse reinforcements are but on the longitudinal resistance of the ship or torsion problems. The wood, in principle, if the ship is well built in accordance with good wood practice, could be used for construction but issues such as fire protection, the weight of the structure, which can be very important, or labor, which can also be much greater. Therefore, imo, although wood can be used, may not be the right material.
     
    DogCavalry likes this.
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