Sixties view of the underwater future

Discussion in 'Boat Design' started by FranklinRatliff, Jan 12, 2012.

  1. rwatson
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    rwatson Senior Member

    But it wasn't purified, compressed, transported and stored by hand :)
     
  2. FranklinRatliff

    FranklinRatliff Previous Member

    I wasn't attempting to describe the process. I was just stating the source.
     
  3. rwatson
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    rwatson Senior Member

    I got the impression that you were trying to mitigate the huge carbon dioxide production caused by space vehicle launches - by stating that hydrogen was a major propellant source.

    My point is, that hydrogen is a very small part of the fuel component - and that even the production of the 'pure hydrogen' creates a huge carbon bill.
     
  4. mydauphin
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    mydauphin Senior Member

    Electrolysis as a means of getting hydrogen is the most expensive method, requires lots of power. Easier, cheaper done chemically.
     
  5. rwatson
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    rwatson Senior Member

    Its even cheaper if you do it the way the Germans did it for their Zeppelins - passing water over very hot steel plates.
     
  6. mydauphin
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    mydauphin Senior Member

    Doesn't that just get steam. There must be something else to it.
     
  7. viking north
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    viking north VINLAND

    Rwatson -- Standard brands cheaper than 10 yrs ago ?? Not when the total package is included I.E. the warranty and replacement parts price. The longer warranties look good on paper but to maintain them you must endure dealer inspections and servicing at $85 an hour. In addition they nickle and dime you to death--shop supplies( towels-hand cleaner-oil absorbant and so on.) Dealer brand name parts have gone sky high.The machines are so complicated you are locked into the dealer servicing so forget saving a buck by doing your own work. Example I have a newer ford van with a 7.3 diesel, in a year or so i will have to replace the oil pan (N.S. salt air)--In my past dodge vans i could simply crawl under remove and install a new pan(2 to 3 hrs work)-- In the newer ford i have to remove the engine completely a 900lb. chunk of steel involving a weeks work. Approx $3000.00 taxes in at the dealers. Luckely i am not a bad back yard mechanic with a son who is a licenced mechanic. Not a typical do it yoursel job that sure adds to the cost of owning some of these machines. When the total package is includesd(dealer service, parts,complicated machines and so on)i would estimate the cost of new machines has doubled for the average buyer and thats not including the plumeting depreciation brought on by vehicle leasing leftovers.
     
  8. rwatson
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    rwatson Senior Member

    No, at very high steel temperatures, its creates Oxidisation (rust). 2400 C

    The oxygen combines with the steel, and all that is left is Hydrogen. The best reference i have found is :

    1903 - Lane hydrogen producer (info attached)

    http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1909/1909 - 0522.html




    The Oxygen conversion also works with Oxy torches cutting steel - the rich Oxygen cuts (rusts) the steel, not the heat

    "A stream of oxygen is then trained on the metal, and metal burns in that oxygen and then flows out of the cut (kerf) as an oxide slag"

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxy-fuel_welding_and_cutting
     

    Attached Files:

  9. rwatson
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    rwatson Senior Member


    Very good point there - depreciation would be a big component as you say.

    Its a bit like $50 computer printers, but $35 ink cartridges.

    Certainly I notice that the components are poorer quality and require special tools to repair.
     
  10. daiquiri
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    daiquiri Engineering and Design

  11. bntii
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    bntii Senior Member

    I do as well.
    My father was a great lover of science and its insights into our world. He had always said that he wanted to live till we made it to mars. He has passed but his enthusiasm is shared by many and lives on.
     
  12. rwatson
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    rwatson Senior Member

    Sending people to the horrors of space to breed is a cruel and expensive fantasy.

    Even the astronauts on the little speck of metal called a 'Space Station' suffer severe physical debilitation in their short little trips (loss of bone density) , and the radiation exposure is a real cause of concern.

    "The health risks to astronauts from space radiation are a major problem for space exploration, perhaps representing a limiting factor on the maximum mission length under current risk acceptance levels. Health risks of concern (NRC, 2005) include cancer, acute radiation sickness, damage to the central nervous system and degenerative effects including cataracts (Cucinotta et al., 2001a) and heart disease (Preston et al., 2004)."

    http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/20070010704_2007005310.pdf

    While the space exploration program provides great insights into engineering and the cosmic mysteries, the chances of ever getting a large healthy population into space are very small. We would do much better developing sophisticated cities in desert wastelands of the oceans.
     
  13. FranklinRatliff

    FranklinRatliff Previous Member

    Part of the urgency for the timing in the Apollo program was getting astronauts on the moon during an ebb in the solar cycle to decrease their chances of being fried by a solar flare.
     

  14. rwatson
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    rwatson Senior Member

    Permanent Moon Bases may solve the Energy Crisis

    and other info

    "Space flight may be bad for your eyesight. Changes found in astronauts' eye tissue may cause vision problems, and possibly even blindness. As well as threatening the health of astronauts, this could jeopardise long-haul missions into space.

    Larry Kramer of Texas Medical School in Houston and colleagues carried out MRI scans on 27 NASA astronauts after they had spent an average of 108 days in space. Four had bulging of the optic nerve, three had kinks in the nerve sheath, and six had flattening of the eyeball."


    http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn21585-space-is-bad-for-astronauts-eyes.html

    Having said that, the Moon may very well end up being permanently manned for the mining of Helium 3 - a product not found in quantity on earth.

    It has the potential for powering the entire energy needs for earth for thousands of years via a safer Atomic Fusion process.

    http://www.asi.org/adb/02/09/he3-intro.html
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helium-3


    "There is 10 times more energy in Lunar Helium 3 than all the economically recoverable Coal, Oil and Natural Gas on Earth"

    http://fti.neep.wisc.edu/neep533/FALL2001/lecture25.pdf
     
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