Sink or Swim??

Discussion in 'Multihulls' started by Richard Woods, May 5, 2009.

  1. ancient kayaker
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    ancient kayaker aka Terry Haines

    I guess BBQing might be more of a challenge in those conditions :eek:
    Not likely to happen on my 10 ft skiff either :)
  2. Fanie
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    Fanie Fanie

    The guys down in Durban has given Manie some bad weed to smoke.

    Sorry Manie.
  3. Zed
    Joined: May 2009
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    Zed Senior Member

    Oh bollocks Maine... both the example mono and the Gunboat would be dependant on the "wingnut on the wheel" in those conditions. Stuff it up on that mono and you probably will not have a rig to play with, stuff it up on the Gunboat and you will be floating about with a rig pointing the wrong way.... down. Seriously have you got the experience at sea in those conditions to spout about it? The gunboat would obviously not be pushing anywhere near that hard in those conditions offshore.... anyway as to how good a sea boat it is ? I don't know! -------> Never sailed one, but I'd guess neither have you!
  4. bad dog
    Joined: Apr 2009
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    Location: Broken Bay, Australia

    bad dog bad dog

    another gun boat upside last week...

    And so it happened. Local Pittwater gun boat Indian Chief flipped last week in a particularly nasty gust of 40kn+ - see attached story. This is a Raider so is like a cruiser on steroids, or an overgrown beach cat that can't be crew-righted.

    Moral is - they stayed afloat, they stayed safe, and coz help was on hand were righted within 1/2 hour. Sure, a mono would have been laid flat, and provided all hatches were closed would then come up all azazz and shambolic, but could also take a lot of water while over, and not sail away or even go down.

    We will never resolve this to everybody's satisfaction - perhaps its tomartoes and tomaytoes all over again!

    Attached Files:

  5. Manie B
    Joined: Sep 2006
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    Manie B Senior Member

    The point that i am trying to make here is that the modern mono can easily be made unsinkable with enough flotation, because the centre boards and bulb keels are not that heavy any more, i refer to Pogo and Melges. There are also many designers and builders of "cruiser racers" that follow these design priciples, especially the French

    Also the idea that cats are the speed kings is no longer true, as you saw from the Suzuki video that even a small mono can deliver a very impressive turn of speed, way beyond the limitations of "regular" formulae of square roots of waterline etc. :p

    Small unsinkable mono's are now crossing oceans regularly in fleets by the hundreds. :D

    I know that Cats at around 32 to 40 feet have made very successfull ocean crossings but anything smaller is rather problematic :rolleyes:

    So in our waters you would be perfectly safe in a Mini :cool:

    jeez Fanie there was no time for "entertainment"
    after we washed all the vomit off deck and got the green colour out of the other chaps i was just ready for the sack to face the next day which was equally bad. There was some really nice cats in the harbour but they weren't talking to us - i just heard the one chap saying to his centre-fold babe that we are a bunch of hooligans with a death wish to go out in that weather.

    And so i still haven't managed to get a ride on a Gunboat - they are probably scared that i would fu3kit up:D

    how true potatoes or potahtos

    anyway chaps - keep on sailing - keep on building
    i have officially started my 5th build
    why only gawd knows - my wife is going to poison me
    the neighbours hate me
    my children dont want to know me

    at least my mother still talkes to me:D
  6. Chris Ostlind

    Chris Ostlind Previous Member


    I just love the swagger as you wrest the microphone from the gang, but I'm thinking that maybe a close look at the speed records would tell another story.

    Round the World (average speed)

    Solo Monohull 10.78
    Solo Multihull 15.84

    24 Hour (average speed)

    Crewed Monohull 24.85kts
    Crewed Multi 33.08

    Solo Monohull 19.53
    Solo Multi 26.2

    In every situation where a ratified record, either solo, or crewed is kept... Multihulls have significant speed advantages over monohulls. The average speed of Joyon during his RTW record run is a full 50% faster than the record average speed of Desjoyeaux.

    Yes, the tri is bigger than the monohull in this case, but there has been nothing to stop a designer/sponsor/skipper from building a bigger monohull to go for big distance records... and yet, they have not. The one exception was the ill-fated Speedboat, which essentially blew the wad very early in their crewed attempt on the NY to Lizard Point run... and has not been seen on the water since.

    The monohulls are not close now and I don't think that this reality will change any time in the near future.
  7. Doug Lord
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    Location: Cocoa, Florida

    Doug Lord Flight Ready

  8. Zed
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    Zed Senior Member

    That's all scary fast for your average sailor wondering about your average boat ---> horse's for course's, I love them both in all shapes and sizes for all sorts of reasons.
  9. Chris Ostlind

    Chris Ostlind Previous Member

    Already posted in the note just above this one. The ratified speed is all that counts and the Cammas/G3 numbers so totally outstrip the Grael effort, that the mono speed is not worth noting, really.

    You heard it here, folks. Some of our newer members have magical, Harry Potter crystal balls, the oh-so-trusty, Magic 8Ball that is available at any local toy store. Toss in a Quija Board and you've got the makings of a real career.

    I only wish I had crystal balls. There'd be no limit to the stuff I could predict.



    Attached Files:

  10. Richard Woods
    Joined: Jun 2006
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    Richard Woods Woods Designs

    I agree "the modern mono can eaily be made unsinkable" So why aren't they????

    And then. The modern racing monohulls, like Melges, Mumms etc are fast downwind, way faster than the monohulls of old. But they really struggle to windward, in part because of a lack of stability.

    An example. In 2002 I raced my 32ft Eclipse catamaran in the UK's 50 mile Round the Island Race. Multihulls start first, so it wasn't until about 30 miles into the race that the monohulls caught up the slower multihulls (like my Eclipse).

    On the spinnaker run we were caught up by the leading Mumm30's. Then on the beat home WE OVERTOOK THEM.

    On board Eclipse was a reporter from the UK's Practical Boat Owner magazine, so an independant witness.

    And of course, unlike the Mumms we had a solid fuel stove, big oven, lots of solar panels. In fact everything needed for a live aboard cruising home, which is what Eclipse was.

    Last year I raced on Bad Kitty, a 35ft catamaran, in the Swiftsure race held in Canada. We have video of ourselves and Red Shift (a Farrier 32 trimaran) overtaking Icon - a 70ft Perry ULDB - TO WINDWARD

    Multihulls don't go to windward?? HA!

    Have you (Manie) even been on a Minitransat boat?? Ever cruised one?? Just curious

    Richard Woods of Woods Designs
  11. Zed
    Joined: May 2009
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    Zed Senior Member

    I find to windward all depends on sea state and wind condition, sometimes they nail me simply because the wind, chop, momentum (that keel thingy!) combination suits the monos, sometimes I nail them because I can get fully powered up and the sea state is favourable or its effect is negated. Light winds are a problem, chop is a problem... but thats prolly just my boat.

    We do need to compare racers with racers etc... I mean the GunBoat probably has a T.V. while the other .... well it would be sparse.

    By the way Manie, the GunBoat was posted as a "yuk yuk" in response to Chris's gybe.... A "cruising boat" flying a hull... not really ideally what you want to do! And it is a marketing vid, the mono was short on rag and sand bagging to make the GunBoat look better... the feeling of speed is hard to catch on video, as you prolly know if you have taken shots at sea... most of the time the camera seems to flatten waves and slow things down. They had to try make it look as fast as it no doubt feels on the boat otherwise whats the point!
  12. rayaldridge
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    rayaldridge Senior Member

    If multis are no longer the speed kings, then why are all the major offshore records held by multis? Even on courses favorable to monohull ULDBs, like the Transpac, the records are held by multis. The multi record, LA to Honolulu is held by a tri averaging 19 knots on a downwind course that should favor monohulls that can plane. The monohull record holder, however, took a couple days longer to get across.

    Here are some interesting stats. Notice that the only monohull record holders are specifically monohull records, not open records.

    The multi record for a transAtlantic, for another example, is held by Groupama 3, at an average speed of 29.26 knots. The average time for the monohull record holder over the same course is 18.05 knots.

    It's true that the bigger the boat, the safer, and this applies to monos as well. But many multis under 30 feet have crossed oceans. Thomas Firth Jones survived a hurricane at sea on a return trip from Bermuda in a 23 foot cat. He crossed the Atlantic a number of times in multis under 30 feet, and wrote engagingly about his experiences. The first Atlantic crossing by a cat was made in a 24 footer, by James Wharram.
  13. Fanie
    Joined: Oct 2007
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    Fanie Fanie

    Manie, when we were on the Vaal dam the little tri outran one of the larger mono's there that was chasing us. They had all sails out. Didn't I show you the pics ? Keep in mind the little tri has a very short mast, it being only experimental, and is 2 meters shorter than it should be.

    Imagine what it would have done with a larger sail when we went out... It's currently 12m^2... and should be 18m^2. Despite the wind in some places we couldn't even fly a hull.

    Remember when a mono heels, it dumps a lot of wind, so power is lost. A multi doesn't heel much, so much less wind power is lost, there are other reasons too but this is one of the main reasons.

    As for your experience off late in Durbs, most guys are like the crew you had, harbour sailors :D In general, bad seas are uncomfortable for mono's and multi's. I would still prefer to be on a multi instead.

    When one of my cats are done - in a while - I'll take you for a spin.

    Little tri may take a trip to the coast end of this month. See if a shark will take a bite at it ;)
  14. Manie B
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    Manie B Senior Member

    Well well at first i was thinking oh wouldn't this pee off the multi boys

    But actually i am at a total loss for words

    jeez this guy gives new meaning to sink or swim

    he he he speed dont come into this equation

    this is called **** yourself at the speed of light

    damn i still cant put a label to this

    nah not descriptive enough :p

    gawd still speechless

    Attached Files:

  15. Manie B
    Joined: Sep 2006
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    Location: Cape Town South Africa

    Manie B Senior Member

    ok i fugured it out

    he comes from oooostraaaaleeeeaaahhhhh

    must be that roooo meat

    or maybe all those flippen poisionous frogs

    :D :D :D :D :D :D

    cheers boys
    its good for a giggle
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