Single Handed Shootout

Discussion in 'Sailboats' started by Paul B, Aug 4, 2007.

  1. Paul B

    Paul B Previous Member

    The single handed shootout that didn't happen is more like it.

    A Class Catamaran World Champion Pete Melvin and Foiling Moth World Champion Rohan Veal were both at ABYC today. Pete is a member here and keeps his (his design) A Class cat there. Rohan was there with the Bladerider contingent for a demo day.

    Apparently Rohan broke his centerboard a few days ago, putting his boat out of action. The demo Bladerider arrived without a centerboard, so two boats, no functional centerboard. I know Randy was working on getting a board shipped out, but that didn't help him today.

    So Pete gave some demo rides on the A Cat and the Bladerider guys answered questions from looky-loos. What is the fastest singlehander? We still don't know.

    Regardless, around the club we had the usual suspects training for the upcoming Laser Masters Worlds, others tuning up for the Coronado 15 Nationals, measurement day for the Cal 20 Nationals, and even the first Class 40 in the USA (a Pogo) berthed at her slip.

    Not a bad summer's day at a little sailors club in California.

    Attached Files:

  2. Doug Lord

    Doug Lord Guest

    Foiler Moth

    According to Rohan Veal on his blog that race has already been done: foiler Moth vs a FLEET of A-class cats. In 5 out of 6 races Veal won! That was approx. 2005. In 2006 Veal raced a FLEET of F-18's and Hobie Tigers-starting 5 minutes after they did and catching and passing most of them with the leaders only 2-3 minutes ahead at the end of three laps. Veal said one of the highlites was passing them on a reach both to windward and to leeward while the cats flew their spinnakers!
    Yeah, we know whose faster-at least in conditions where the Moth can foil.
    And this is just the begining.....
    Any reason given for the broken board?
  3. Paul B

    Paul B Previous Member

    We've all heard your tired claims too many times. Why don't you go spew your garbage somewhere else?

    Today we had a missed opportunity for two world champions to give us a real data point. I would have liked to see this happen, and also hear directly from Pete and Rohan afterward. No one needs to hear from you.

    By the way, when I asked Pete if they were going to find out who was fastest he said today he was (since the other boat couldn't answer the bell). Of course this was in jest, since Pete is about the most humble, good natured person in sailing.

    By the way, I can now say I've seen and touched a foiling Moth. Can you? Maybe soon I will get a trial ride from Randy, after he takes care of all the serious customers. When will you?
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  4. Doug Lord

    Doug Lord Guest

    Garbage? Gee, I don't think so: you can read it yourself on Rohan Veals site.
    1 person likes this.
  5. Hansen Aerosprt
    Joined: Mar 2007
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    Hansen Aerosprt Junior Member

    <<What is the fastest singlehander? We still don't know.>>
    Windsurfer overall.
    Formula Board around a course...
    Easier to sail. 1/2 the cost of a BR - maybe less.
  6. Paul B

    Paul B Previous Member

    Right you are. I always seem to forget boards. They are as much a "singlehander" as a catamaran, a foil assisted dinghy, or a Laser.

    I was talking to one of our top Laser Masters today and guessed you could own 2 Lasers for the price of one Bladerider. Maybe you could own more than 2 Formula Boards?

    I have to say the Bladerider fit and finish looks superior to some of the high priced International 14s I've seen over the past few years. I've spent a lot of time in factories in China and I know how difficult it must be for the Bladerider guys to get consistent good quality in that environment.
  7. Doug Lord

    Doug Lord Guest

    Foiler Moth

    It's hard to beat a board for getting people on the water relatively inexpensively sailing fast!
    From"Moth on Foils":

    The Bladerider Experiment

    KA Ambassador Martin Love has spent many hours with KA chief designer Andrew McDougall perfecting the new designs for the 08 KA Formula.
    What better way to test the allround performance of the Formula than against the X8 in a variety of conditions.
    So the test pilots took to the water over a series of tests and here is what they found:
    5-7 knots *--- The foiler "flys" when the average sailor can't get a Formula board to plane ( of course there will be exceptions , really light , fit guy's) *The foiler is blistering fast in these conditions .
    7-8 - 12 knots --- *Upwind the foiler has much better VMG , Formula board can't point as high although marginally faster. *Formula board is faster downwind but on the lighter end of the wind scale can't sail as low and can fall off the plane .
    12-18 knots --- Upwind very even , Formula board faster but lower . VMG very similar. Formula board noticeably faster downwind .
    18 knots + *--- The formula board starts to edge away now upwind and is considerably faster downwind. .
    Conclusion ----- The foiler is amazingly efficient in light to moderate airs and will foil earlier than a Formula board will plane.
    See the Bladerider in action

    © 1991-2006 KA Sail Australia Pty Ltd. All Rights Reserved.
    Check out the pix:
    KA Sail Australia - Bladerider v's Formula
    Address: Changed:1:22 AM on Wednesday, June 13, 2007
  8. Chris Ostlind

    Chris Ostlind Previous Member

    As long as you are going to haul out that tired, well-thrashed discussion from the Bladerider site, Doug... (previously worked hard at this location starting at post #573 in which Doug attempts to compare apples and orangutans on behalf of Bladerider)

    The real issue facing anyone who wishes to go sailing recreationally with either of these rigs; How much actual sailing can one do from the moment they drive up to the launch area to the moment they are ready to drive away. It's the bang for the buck comparison in the flesh. (And sure, bring two board rigs for the comparison if you can buy them both for what a Bladerider will set you back) or three, according to Bill's suggestion below.

    So, here's the ultimate contest.

    Put said foiler and boarder(s) in the parking lot with their respective gear on/in/behind their vehicles with a laid-out course in the water sitting out there and ready for them to circle three times with the wind blowing 15-20.

    No pre-rigged parts and/or components, just start with the boats in the same configuration one would typically see for safe transport.

    Say GO and see who actually gets their boat rigged and in the water, around the course and back on their vehicle and ready to drive away.

    With everyone so concerned about their available time for sporting activities, and with a very high understanding of how much of that time is really wasted doing prep and assembly when they could be out there having fun... it would be very interesting to see just how fast these two types of sailing craft can meet their objectives of providing fun ON THE WATER and not diddling with the rigging on the beach, tipping the boat in shallow water to install the foils, etc.

    Wanna find out who is really the fastest?

    As purely an amusing side note along these lines... has any Moth foiler yet raced a singlehanded Hobie Trifoiler in full foiling conditions for both boats? You did say Single Handed Shootout, didn't you?

    Maybe we could haul one down to the beach at Hurricane Gulch and find out who is fastest while Rohan is in the area? I'd love to see Ketterman drive his design against Rohan's repaired/replaced machine any day.
  9. Hansen Aerosprt
    Joined: Mar 2007
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    Hansen Aerosprt Junior Member

    1) You can buy 3 complete state-of-the-art Formula kits for the price of one BR.
    2) Comparing an 'average' Formula sailor to a BR sailor has nothing to do with outright performance or VMG of the respective equipment. A BR has no chance against a top level Formula sailor around a course in anything approaching reasonable wind. Those able to sail a BR to it's full potential around a course, i.e. no capsizes, wing dips, blown tacks and jibes are basically pro-level sailors - not 'average' users. The US Windsurfing National Championships start Tuesday off Crissy Field on SF Bay. I think it would be fun to see a BR in those conditions going against top-level amateur Formula sailors on up-to-date kit on a real race course in real conditions. Just getting off the beach would be fun to watch...
    3) BR's are very cool no doubt but let's get real about bang for buck, user-friendliness and outright performance and don't forget that Formula kit is improving day-by-day.
  10. Doug Lord

    Doug Lord Guest

    Foiler Moth

    Bill, how many Formula boards for one race ready A Class cat, F 18, 49er ? All boats beaten by the 12.75'(11' hull) foiler Moth around a course.
    As I said earlier: its hard to beat a board for getting people on the water sailing fast. But at Tinho Dornellas' Calema Windsurfing here most of the regulars have AT LEAST three boards and way more rigs-not everyone but most. For a "sit-down" non-trapeze dinghy and excepting boards there is simply nothing in it's price range that even comes close..
    And since the foiler Moth is the FIRST bi-foil monofoiler in history and only foiled first in 1999 there is a long way to go both with the Moth
    and bi-foil technology. Application of the technology to other boats has a huge potential-not just to dinghies but to multihulls and keelboats as well; bi-foil technology is in its infancy.
  11. Doug Lord

    Doug Lord Guest

    Great Race

    Just checked Rohans website( )
    and tomorrow Monday the 6th of August his Florida dealer is flying in a foil and board so Rohan can race Pete Melvin and his A- Cat!
    This ought to be good if there is any wind....
    WRONG! I misread Rohans site: the race should have taken place yesterday(Aug.4th) late or maybe today--
    my apologies!
  12. Chris Ostlind

    Chris Ostlind Previous Member

    Foiler comparisons to standard, non-foiling boats.... Still appples to Orangutans, Doug.

    I tell you what, put some of those dandy foils on any of the above mentioned boats and tell me if the Moth is still the fastest. Go ahead, do it as a mental exercise if you can't find the time or money to do it in the real world.

    If you readily go to the, "well, those boats are bigger and carry more sail and cost more" card, then you've instantly made the argument for a simpler, easier to sail (as well as enjoy) craft.

    Get the comparisons on the same page, Doug, or they become meaningless. The Moth has already lost the price battle to other boats that are just as much fun and a whole lot less fiddly in setup as well as use.

    And, hey, you still owe us that list of sold boats with their sail numbers so we can verify the actual numbers beyond what the marketing department at BR would tell you.

    You say they're bouncing big numbers.... I say prove it.

    As for the recent Worlds... I see 63 entries in what you say is a growing ball-busting sport. You see more Lasers than that in many National Championships, much less the Worlds.

    I also see multiple DNF's for entrants as high as 28th place, which totally cooks any chance of placing well, no matter the skill of the driver. The 27th place driver was pushing around his trusty low-rider, with no DNF's in any of the events, beating 30 Moth foilers in the process. Why yes, you'd have to say, conclusively, that the Moth foiler is certainly the fastest boat for its size available.

    I wonder if the 30 guys (gals) feel that their large expenditure over the cost of a sea-hugger has been worth the dough. Go all the way to Italy to get blasted by a displacement boat...? Ouch!

    So, what all this really means is that there are only 26 sailors worldwide who are capable of:

    1.) Sailing with enough skill on a foiler to earn satisfactory points and...

    2.) Also able to prep and maintain one of these high-strung boats at the level necessary to truly complete a regatta.

    26 sailors with dependable boats does not make for a rush of dominance in anything except the minds of those who have been sucking on the hype too long.

    You let us know when Moth foilers get to the same level as, oh, let's say.... the US National Hobie 16 fleet. Perhaps you could dial-back the fluff a bit and try to keep this from being too over the top.
  13. TTS
    Joined: Jul 2007
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    TTS Senior Member

    Since the Bladerider is a foiling moth, maybe it should go up against a foiling A-class!!! Also, simplify the setup, make it functional for the everyday sailor and make it affordable. That is what needs to happen to making foiling more main stream. A-Class cats are making a resurrgence, not because they are always affordable, but because someone has put a great deal of time into the class, the bylaws, the structure, the design and the racing. Out of all of the "high-tech" classes, the A-Class CONSISTENTLY puts on regattas with good to great turnout. This makes the racing fun, exciting and attainable.
  14. Hansen Aerosprt
    Joined: Mar 2007
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    Location: SF Bay

    Hansen Aerosprt Junior Member

    Hey, no doubt the Moth foiler is less $$ than many other larger, slower craft. It is a very impressive demonstration of technology. But, those 3-board multiple-rig boardsailors can race formula, high-wind slalom and shred coastal surf for less total $$ than a BR which really only does one thing well. And, most any of those boards and rigs in the hands of an average windsurfer will keep up with a BR on a reach in 15-20 knots of breeze. Got it?


  15. Chris Ostlind

    Chris Ostlind Previous Member

    You've been saying this very thing for two years now, Doug. Tell us, just when are you going to give these Mothie guys credit for having moved out of the drooling baby stage of their skill sets? Does Rohan realize that you have him pegged for wearing diapers and not a jock strap?

    I also have not heard one stinkin' word from the Swiss dudes who were supposed to set Lake Geneva on fire with that Aussie 18 on foils last year. What's up with their mad dash to pre-eminence as possibly the fastest foiler this side of Hydroptere?

    You had such high hopes that they could actually fly that thing with some consistency that you started to get all giddy about launching a 60 footer directly from paper to water with no intermediate steps in between. If it's all that easy, Doug, what has happened to that wonderful experiment?

    Looking at their website you see some cool shots of a hot little iceboat, etc., but the 18 foiler shots are from last year with not a thing new.

    What is going on with the monster hype of foilers sweeping the world by storm if the one single foiling 18 has been shelved in favor of other pursuits?

    I see that Jean-Pierre did enter the Moth Worlds and finished a creditable 18th with his Prowler. Perhaps he's content now to further develop his skills as a Moth driver? Perhaps the effort involved trying to get a cohesive team working correctly on what must surely be an extremely difficult boat, the three man 18, is just too much to pull together without huge amounts of time invested for very little return on investment.

    It would be interesting to hear from him as to his interests and issues with that boat.
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