Simple? or?

Discussion in 'Boatbuilding' started by Lake fisher, Oct 1, 2020.

  1. Lake fisher
    Joined: Oct 2020
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    Location: Eastern Wa

    Lake fisher Junior Member

    Hello all. Long time lurker, having read a breadth of the forum parts, not concentrating only on one type or portion. So I thought I would put out there what I am thinking of for a build to fit my specific needs and what is a very niche market if I so chose.

    In our area are numerous lakes which are flyfishing only, no motors allowed. The lakes are typically 10-40 acres in size but often get winds on them that preclude going out in belly tube, inflatable pontoon though stable gets blown around, even my kayak is a pain then. Waves can even on a blue sky day build to 18”, white caps. No time to be out there.

    I noticed one guy who had a small 8’ pram, stopped by talking to him. The pros and cons, stability, rowing, fitting in the back of his SUV etc. I researched the company he bought from, they are months out on builds, full fiberglass. Since I have built strip plank canoes, glued lapstrake row boats, began looking on my own.

    Hopefully the picture below shows basic shape, can answer questions if need be. But it is a very simple build.

    Question is, though built flat bottom, would having a simple v, such as a garvey type hull, be a better performer rowing, small waves, yet still maintain the stability to stand and fly cast on a small lake environment?

    LOA 7’10

    Beam 4’2”

    Draft 3”

    Weight 55 lbs

    Max load 436

    6 mm ply bottom sides, glass, epoxy. Interior bracing, seat tower, oar locks.


    upload_2020-10-1_10-45-25.png
    upload_2020-10-1_10-45-43.png
     
  2. fallguy
    Joined: Dec 2016
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    Location: usa

    fallguy Senior Member

    Better to buy a plan. They are usually like$20-$50. The big concern would be rocker and if the scow bottom ends up underwater which is like putting on the brakes.

    I think you will be a little sad about the weight in ply and I have never enjoyed rowing these very far. But perhaps I am reflecting on wider rowboats.

    Overall, it is pretty cheap to try it.

    You got glass in that 55# calc? You need to glass the bottom a bit.
     
  3. Lake fisher
    Joined: Oct 2020
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    Location: Eastern Wa

    Lake fisher Junior Member

    Yes. I have the plans as shown. yes, weight includes glass
     
  4. bajansailor
    Joined: Oct 2007
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    Location: Barbados

    bajansailor Marine Surveyor

    +1 re buying a plan for the best boat that you can find to suit your intended usage.

    Do you have a limit on size - does it have to fit inside a vehicle? Or would you be happy towing it on a trailer, or putting it on a roof rack?

    In view of how you have to row, and you might want to cover a fair distance on the lake when looking for good fishing spots, then I think you want to have a boat which is a joy to row, rather than an effort - and any rectangular brick shaped pram is going to be more of an effort than a joy, especially so if the wind suddenly picks up and you have short steep waves to contend with.

    This fly fishing coble is probably a bit too big, but maybe a smaller version? She should be very easy to row longish distances.
    15'4'' Fly Fishing PlansCoble https://www.duckworks.com/product-p/sel-15.4flyfishingcoble.htm

    Here is a pram that should row easily - a bit under 12', with a hull weight of 90 lbs :
    The Passagemaker Dinghy: Only 90 Pounds! https://www.clcboats.com/shop/boats/boat-plans/rowboat-plans/passagemaker-dinghy-sailboat-kit.html

    Another from Chesapeake Light Craft, a simple skiff -
    Jimmy Skiff: A Chesapeake Bay Rowing & Sailing Skiff That You Can Build! https://www.clcboats.com/shop/boats/boat-plans/rowboat-plans/jimmy-skiff-rowing-sailing-kit.html

    If you are very keen on a small pram under 8' long, this Eastport pram would be vastly superior to the design you have shown above - and you can buy the plans and building manual for $89.
    You can even build it as a two part nesting pram which only takes up 4'9" x 4' of space - this could fit even inside a small hatchback.
    Eastport Nesting Pram https://www.clcboats.com/shop/boats/boat-plans/rowboat-plans/eastport-nesting-dinghy.html

    Here is another small pram design - plans cost $50 - but I would much prefer an Eastport pram any day.
    Spira International Inc - BackBay Ultralight Boat https://spirainternational.com/hp_back.php
     
  5. Lake fisher
    Joined: Oct 2020
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    Location: Eastern Wa

    Lake fisher Junior Member

    A couple reasons for size
    8’ is a sheet of ply. He has a 9 and 10’ model but then have to scarf and waste. As it is, this is 3 sheets marine ply.
    Fit in bed of 6.5’ pickup, tailgate up. Yes, I have a roof rack but at least one kayak would be on it. Tailgate up and no trailer because of travel trailer behind. In addition, typically no boat ramps. So you end up with it on a dolly in broken rock.
    Otherwise I would go 14-16’ long.
    When fishing these lakes, typically you row 2 miles in 4-6 hours. Row watching fish finder. Set bow/stern anchors and fish chrominoids flies 30’ down for rainbows or cuttthroats. Sometimes you can dry fly fish, not often, but still need ability to stand confidently.
    As I said earlier, they are a niche craft. Specifically for fishing small lakes. Not for moonlight romantic rows though my lab could go along. As it is, ever try paddling a kayak with a lab behind you, rocks in the bow as counter weights?
    Below is example of using one. Quite common in Alberta.

    3 Reasons Why Prams Are Awesome - Interior Fly Fishing Co. http://interiorflyfishingco.com/stillwater-fishing/3-reasons-prams-win/
     
  6. fallguy
    Joined: Dec 2016
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    Location: usa

    fallguy Senior Member

    Rowing gets old in a hurry if the boat isn't fun to row. You want longer and narrower if possible.

    Don't forget factors like wind make rowing harder and more frequent. Also, a pram will track easier with a skeg.

    Keeping the bow to the wind is a benefit in fishing. The scow bow may home poorer.

    I like fishing from my Gilpatrick Laker, but paddling it in much of any wind is a real chore.

    I would try to determine if you can go a bit longer. Hull speed is defined by the ratio of length to beam ftmp.

    I am actually going to be building a pram like your design. But it is not meant for much rowing other than to and from a buoy or in an emergency as a lifeboat.

    Remember, long and narrow is more fun to row. For fishing, too narrow to being tippy is also horrible.
     
    Last edited: Oct 1, 2020
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  7. bajansailor
    Joined: Oct 2007
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    Location: Barbados

    bajansailor Marine Surveyor

    How about stretching a pram to just under 12' in length, and then making it a nesting pram, with an overall length of just over 6' when nested?
    It would be fairly simply to assemble after you take it out of the back of your pick up truck.
    And a 12' pram will be so much easier / nicer to row than an 8' pram of the same beam.

    Or maybe you could build a two part version of the famous Wooden Boat 9'6" Nutshell pram?
    9'6" Nutshell Pram https://www.woodenboatstore.com/products/96-nutshell-pram

    Or a Chameleon?
    Her nested length is 5'4", and overall length is 10'4"
    Chameleon https://duckworksmagazine.com/04/s/designs/greene/cham/

    Here is a good article about one couple's experiences with a Chameleon (and a smaller version) -
    https://www.goodoldboat.com/promo_pdfs/March12_Promo.pdf

    And an article about building a Chameleon -
    Building Robbie https://www.sailorgirl.com/adventures/building-robbie/

    I rather like this Chameleon design - I built myself a much smaller 7'6" version 20 years ago, and have been very happy with her.
     
  8. Lake fisher
    Joined: Oct 2020
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    Location: Eastern Wa

    Lake fisher Junior Member

    Thank you all for the replies.
    More input from myself:
    All of the boat hulls you propose can be stood upright in and use a 9’, 6wt fly rod with 60’ of line out? I am 6’, 190 lbs dressed, good balance but...
    The longer, heavier it gets, has to also be looked at in regards to hauling in the truck while pulling a trailer . Any weight behind the axle, per weight distributing hitch manufacturers, should be counted towards the tongue weight of a trailer. Heavier in front of axle also has to be counted towards max cargo capacity.
    It is for fishing first, to get a person to location to fish second. If I row while fishing, maximum speed is very low. As it is, I often use a drift sock with a light wind and move to fast.
     
  9. Will Gilmore
    Joined: Aug 2017
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    Location: Littleton, nh

    Will Gilmore Senior Member

    Lake Fisher,
    A flat bottom pram, such as what you have asked about, can be designed to row adequately enough. The eight foot length is practical for all the reasons you have already started. Rowing isn't just about the hull form, it is also about the well positioned seat to oar locks and the width of those locks so the stroke is the right length with good leverage and natural movement. Widely spaced locks work better than narrow oar locks.

    However, you are looking for a boat to use on a lake that gets choppy or rolling with wind and waves. Wide, is not your friend here. You want to stand up while drifting under these conditions. A wide boat may be more stable when you stand in her, but she will also move with greater sensitivity to the water movement. Greater buoyancy farther from the center means waves lift one side or the other of her more easily. In other words, she will roll more.

    A 'V' bottom will be tipper to stand in, but a wide hull will tip you. I would consider looking at something like a simple pirogue.
    [​IMG]
    -Will (Dragonfly)
     
  10. Lake fisher
    Joined: Oct 2020
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    Location: Eastern Wa

    Lake fisher Junior Member

    Thank you Will for your thoughtful reply. The wind/waves are a worst case scenario to speak of how these small lakes, whether in the mountains or on the scabland yet in the base of canyons can act. We watch the weather reports, wind direction and speed. Trout fishing under winds/waves is best left alone and as such I would never try standing except maybe in a bass boat, certainly not a small craft. Dry fly fishing is best early or late in the day, fairly calm surface as the trout are feeding on insects in the surface film.
    I had thought of canoe instead of pirogue so it is interesting you brought that up. Though I have several plan sets of them laying about from canvas to cedar strip, a SOF canoe has intrigued me at times and explored adapting a set.
     
  11. latestarter
    Joined: Jul 2010
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    Location: N.W. England

    latestarter Senior Member

    If your preferred design lacks stability you could use outriggers while fishing. Search for kayak outriggers it will give you ideas.

    You could consider Richard Woods Duo, as the name implies it is made of 2 sheets of plywood 4mm thick so weighs about 45lb and it can be nested. It does not need scarfing just a simple butt strap.

    Sailing Catamarans - Duo 10ft Sail/Row Dinghy (nesting option) http://sailingcatamarans.com/index.php/designs-2/46-beach-cats-and-dinghies/420-duo-10ft-sailrow-dinghy

     
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  12. gonzo
    Joined: Aug 2002
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    gonzo Senior Member

    I can't see why would someone design and build a narrow boat to then add floats or other contraptions. Do it right and design/build a hull of appropriate beam.
     
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  13. latestarter
    Joined: Jul 2010
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    Location: N.W. England

    latestarter Senior Member

    The designer explains his thinking, it is like a plywood RIB. He uses it with his motorcruiser catamaran. Horses for courses.
    It can be rowed without the external buoyancy bags.
     
    Last edited: Oct 4, 2020
  14. fallguy
    Joined: Dec 2016
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    Location: usa

    fallguy Senior Member

    76D867EA-C925-426D-8B58-BEDB162080EF.jpeg
    this is basically the same as
    my Laker design

    It would require a skeg or will track for s..t. And the wind will get under a front edge and shove you sideways.

    The l/b ratio of the boat is important. For your decision, at least track the ratio. A very low ratio will be less pleasant to paddle to the point you may not want to go fishing.

    And I am all about fishing. Check out the kid face.
     
    Last edited: Oct 4, 2020
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  15. Lake fisher
    Joined: Oct 2020
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    Location: Eastern Wa

    Lake fisher Junior Member

    Good afternoon all.
    Interesting to read replies, thoughts. I named the posting the way I did as the small pram is the simplest idea, then said or because after reading other posts realized comments can become convoluted.
    As stated in the original post, I have built 2 previous rowing craft. Cosine Wheery strip plank, heavy sucker yet rowed good and a lapstrake, the Shellback dingy. So I have an idea of rowing, shapes. Yes, this flat bottom pram is not in the same class. I never alluded it is.
    Second, I stated that the lakes are typically 10-40 acres in size. A square of one acre is 208’ 9” on each side. 40 acres is simply 1/4 mile on each side. So the distance being discussed is minimal. One lake I have fished is 1.8 miles long, but the boat launch is midway basically and the main area to fish is no more than 1/2 mile from it. In addition as it lays in the bottom of a coulee the width might be 1,000 feet.
    Out of curiosity I looked online at pontoon for fly fishing again, but prices now for what I feel acceptable based on previous experience are over $1000. They are 5’ X 10 weigh on average 74 pounds alone. I’ve rowed those on same lakes discussed and are pigs basically especially if windy. But able to be taken down a class 1/2 trout stream...
     
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