Shrouds question

Why on some older sportsboats shrouds are located anywhere but at the edge of the deck? I can understand why they would be located near cabin top on cruisers, but on racers- i dont, please explain what are pros and cons of placing shrouds closer\further from the cabin for a sport boat
is that a rating thing?

 

Head sail angle.

 

"Genoa only deceives the owner who no longer has a manageable sailing yacht" (CA Marchaj, Sail Performance)

The upwind sail area can be distributed in many ways: from a very small jib and a very large Mainsail ... to a gigantic Genoa and a tiny mainsail.

In the 70's of the last century the rigging of large Genoa and small mainsail spread, and that is what made the Shrouds go inwards.

The triumph of this rig was due on the one hand to the type of regattas (upwind in summer with force 4) and on the other hand to the fact that the fractional 3/4 rig of the 50's was not well solved.

CA Marchaj and i (LOL) think that a superb rig is fractional with MainSail = 2 x Jib, with the shrouds therefore as wide as possible.

And even add a boom to the Jib

 

Mainsail = 2 x jib

 

Thank you very much for thorough explanation.
Can you please elaborate on that superb rig configuration and if it should have swept back spreaders or not? And if so-single backstay or two running ones?

 

my 2 cents from an (ex-)cruisers perspective:
chainplates at the gunwhale: not preferred! Lying along side a somewhat higher wall or another boat there is a much bigger threat for shroud or spreader to hit the wall or the rig of the other boat.
Swept back spreaders: a curse for sailing deep downwind on long tradewind passages! (regrettably one of the three unavoidable big disadvantages if one buys secondhand these days: saildrive, wheel steering & swept-back-spreaders)

 

a yes: more headsailarea than is currently "in" is also quite handy on longer broad reaching/running passages with stronger tradewinds: Sailing with the headsail alone is extremely comfortable: the ruller furler is the gas-pedal as one sails with the main packed away.

 

1) what about chainplates glued to the inside of the hull?
2) why swept back spreaders are bad for cruizing? I thought that they on the opposite, make boat easier to handle because you don't need to keep an eye on backstays in light winds and in the event of losing control, given you gained more rake-your boat will turn into the wind
The boat I'm set to buy is a sloop with 3/4 fractional rig with inline shrouds, 30% ballast to displacement ratio, tiller steering and some old Volvo Penta engine,
From our I've gathered from the internet-it's a tippy boat and it needs some tuning, so my plan is:
1) switch to synthetic rigging
2) chop 2 meters of the top
3) switch to carbon chainplates and move them to the edge of the hull but on the inside
4) switch to swept back spreaders, get a tad more rake
5) remove fixed backstay, leave only running and checks, for better cockpit access.
6) switch to luff rope for main and hanks for headsail, no furling

 

I gather this
First Class Europe | Bénéteau https://www.beneteau.com/monotypes/first-class-europe
is your boat.
A very fine one, in my view, even though it does not comply to all the "must haves" of "cruising boats" (or what lots of people think "must haves" are...!)
My advice:
leave it as it is for the moment & go sailing. I am sure the boat (if it is really as tender as the forum experts say) will be fast under reduced sail too. It is from a VERY reputable designer & has extremely good looking lines.
Before changing anything: take her out & see for yourself!
(& certainly don't do any radical changes as moving chainplates & spreaders around!)
Cruising swept back spreaders were a big pia on our last tahiti trip (never had them before):
the main was lying heavily against them.
As the main wasn't able to be totally eased off/squared off, when very deep reaching the windflow would be from leech to luff blanketing the genoa, but the heading was still too high to pole it out.
Had inline on two rtw-perfect. (babystay & (running) checkstays) - a very good rigg for tradewind sailing

 

Yes, ofcource i will sail it at default configuration first, to get familiar with it and get a reference point, the only thing i might do right off the bat is to replace rigging because there is a chance that the one that come with the boat will be in dangerous to sail condiotion.
installing all ,mods from the list from the get go would be quite stupid, this list if my plan for the mext 3 years at lest, probably 5

is there any way not to use baby stay? its placement is quite inconvenient, as i understand it-it preents the mast from pumping, cant checkstays do the same?

also what are your thought on inboard outboard engines, if you have any?
i know this is a bad example but the old folk at Wave rover channel swears by it and given the fact that its less weight- im considering switching 90s iron diesel for it, and for redundancy and dinghy-just carry a spare one. Added benefit would be thrust articulation in Y axis and lowering drag

 

If the condition of the standing rigging is causing anxiety then I suggest you find a surveyor to take a look at it and report on the condition.The advice to sail it before making any changes is something to follow as advice or opinions from the internet will be given on the basis of that person's experience and your sailing conditions may not be identical.The world's largest boatbuilder and the design stature of Group Finot are assurances of a sound boat and the simple option may be to add more reefing points if you anticipate being overpowered.Do keep in mind that major alterations will probably make the boat less attractive to a future buyer if you ever seek to trade up.The only common objection to Volvo engines is that the parts are rather expensive.If it has an S-drive it might be a good move to replace the diaphragm if the condition is in doubt.Most auxiliary engines suffer from too little use in my opinion as the tendency is to use them for a short period of time to leave or enter a marina and as such they hardly reach operating temperature.A run that gets them warm and then working them hard for half an hour every few weeks gives the engine the chance to burn off the deposits that accumulate.Given a choice between a somewhat elderly diesel or an outboard I would never choose the outboard and the reduced insurance cost associated with diesel would help pay for some maintenance.The loss of the mass of a diesel low down would hurt stability too.

I don't take the advice of Marchaj too seriously as he may not have sailed the boat in question,in fact he may well have been dead for quite a while when the boat in question was designed,and in any case he seems to have done much of his sailing on a theoretical sea.As with all matters,determining things oneself is reliable,both from the view of local conditions and individual expectations.

 

i have no such plans, when im done with it-everything will be stripped and hull will be scrapped
im buying thi boat to practive sailing, modding and working on composites, after im done equipment will be moved to the mew hull

not anxiety, its a common senseб i know that there is a high possibility that rig have some life left in it in which case i wont touch it,but there might be some red lights like a lot of rust, torn strands, cracks, its an old boat
also current engine is placed in the middle, thich is kind of unconvenient.

Yeah...

Shaft

understood, ill consider its shape and if it has some life left in it i wont hurry to replace it, but in a long run i plan to switch to more hybrid propulsion with diesel generator on standby and electric motor because as you said-engines on sailboats do not see often use and i think its more logical if it will draw power from battery bank which can be constantly charged by the sun and, electric motor, because it can act as hydro generator also.
the plan is to get an outboard leg and install electric motor on it, this way i can use a well and reduce wetted area when there is no need to charge or move the boat.

Will do!

Thank you very much for your insight.

 

I might add that the idea of cutting 2 meters off the top hasnt come out of thin air, it was recommended to me by other owner who had a better experience in overall sailing(racing\cruising) after doing that

 

I would recommend that you find out where that sailor is based.If it is somewhere like San Francisco,which is known for good amounts of wind it may not be something you need to do if your local conditions are less breezy.I would say that you are fortunate in having a shaft drive in the boat as it would be quite a small matter to replace the Volvo-when it's time is due-with another diesel as the various versions of small tractor engines are not that expensive.A bit of adjustment to the feet may be necessary but it would keep the weight low down and you will be sacrificing an amount of performance if you cut a well into the hull.It makes even less sense if you use a diesel to charge a bank of batteries attached to the outboard leg and you have the additional complication of making a controller work.It is so much easier and probably a lot less expensive to crane out the Volvo and crane in a Yanmar,Mitsubishi or marinised Kubota and you can connect the cables and fuel lines that are in the boat already.

 

Toronto

why, there will be a trap door for the opening that will be removed as the engine goes down, basically like on FT10

you have misunderstood my point, generator is for emergencies, most of the power will come from solar panel,hydro and wind turbine, motor will be connected to the main battery bank on the boat thich will be placed in the middle, this way com will basically remain the same and probably will be even lower that with diesel