Separate Deck From Hull

Discussion in 'Sailboats' started by BobBill, Oct 17, 2009.

  1. bistros

    bistros Previous Member

    Given that Steve Clark has been responsible for building more boats than the rest of the forum put together, I'd pay attention to his advice. Probably more important that building the Vanguard boats is that he was also responsible for avoiding repair costs and warranty expenses on the thousands built.

    The plastic bottle comment was perhaps a little tongue in cheek, but some type of cheap redundant flotation that doesn't absorb water is better than nothing. At the sailing school I taught at 30 plus years ago, we had a bunch of elderly Albacores with 2 liter soft drink bottles living under the foredecks in mesh bags - we just could not afford anything better.

    Air bags are the right way to handle a boat with no or compromised air chambers. They are relatively cheap, easy to inspect, and easy to replace when (not if) they are compromised.

    --
    Bill
     
  2. Doug Lord
    Joined: May 2009
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    =========
    Steve has done tremendous things-but this comment is absolutely ridiculous.
     
  3. bistros

    bistros Previous Member

    How many hulls did Vanguard put together over the years? Think about the Lasers, the 420s, Optis etc.

    Steve was responsible for thousands of boats built as President & CEO of Vanguard. I seriously doubt anyone else here can claim anywhere close.

    --
    Bill
     
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  4. BobBill
    Joined: Oct 2009
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    BobBill Senior Member

    Bouyancy Bags and Advice

    I understand and take advice well. If the advice makes sense, the source does not matter to me. Clark made me smile, but he sided with Par over foam, which is the important thing for me. Those wee bags the Optis use seem the ticket.

    Say, Dougie lad, Steve C's Vanguard made good boats, though a bit spendy then for me. They were the best in class, no doubt. Am only too eager to acknowledge his advice and take it to heart. Bill's comment was undoubtedly generalization.

    Genius minds must think alike, as I have occasionally employed a similar signature to Clark's... "The morale will continue until the floggings improve!" Used to write it on the chart boards at GM meetings. Mgmt never got it, obviously.

    May be some bladders available somewhere. I have some time to check it out, as there is another fargin' four inches of snow on the ground here. Just had a brainstorm - those LONG TUBES kids swim with, whatever they are called. Cheap and disposable and yes I think so...

    Yes Bill, in the late 60s, I raced a few times with some guys and we too used whatever we could to hang in the I 14s for floatation. For us, nothing ever stayed in place during competitions and we would have to deal with rolling debris all the time.

    Wish I could do it again...

    Think the electrical idea (to soften hull/deck joint) is overkill? I would like to slip it down the joint like butter.
     
    Last edited: Feb 3, 2010
  5. Paul B

    Paul B Previous Member

  6. Steve Clark
    Joined: Jul 2004
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    Steve Clark Charged Particle

    The Laser used something called "cubetainers" which were a lot like 4 liter polyethylene water jugs you get at camping stores. This was specified in the Laser building manual, and every laser built has plastic jugs inside for emergency flotation. So one gallon plastic jugs is really not a joke, but a fairly common solution.
    Obviously purpose built airbags are also a good solution. Canoe and kayak suppliers have many sizes and types. The Optimist bag is also pretty universally available. We used to have two specs, one that was for inside the "covers" and a separate one that was used as the stern bag. It was coated nylon where as the others were tough vinyl of some sort.

    I would recommend trying a few simple things before winding up a heated boat breaker.. Usually the glass skins are much tougher than the putty, and if you just get it started, you can pry the pieces apart pretty easily. You can test this idea with a putty knife and a blow torch.
    Dremel also has a number of useful bit for their little tools. There is an 1/8" carbide tile cutting burr and a number of little diamond wheels that are favorites around her for cutting composites. They are worth the $.
    One hing to try is to cut out the putty as deeply and carefully as you can and then start wedging the pieces apart. Shingles can be cut into great little wedges ( sometimes you can even find them already cut up as "porch shims") so you can progressively crack the hull deck joint.

    It is also a good idea to have a cradle of some sort to keep things in shape while they are apart. It is unlikely that the boat was assembled in space, more likely it was bonded before the hull was released from the mold, or was bonded in an assembly jug of some sort. This can be very casual, a bit of CDX plywood and bondo will make excellent cradles very quickly.
    Good luck,
    SHC
     
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  7. BobBill
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    BobBill Senior Member

    Bouyancy Bags and Advice on Hull work

    Thank-you, Mr. Clark. Captain Bob will do as suggested. You and Par have both oars in the water and I listen.

    I sort of was planning to do the slice and wedge thing first, using carpenter shims as levers...carefully, to remove the deck. The electric idea was one of my ideas. I never stop thinking about the projects.

    Your comments about the jugs is good, was thinking about the large water jugs campers use, so they can be removed or resealed; milk jugs would be fine, but for the potential rattling and caps coming off. Will work that out. Those long swimming tubes (pool noodles?) do sound silly but they can be bundled and are way low in cost, easily replaced.

    Yes, a basic jig is called for, and I will work some sort of design along your suggestions out.

    After I clean out the old foam and clean the interior up, I will fix the soft parts of the hull and re glass the bottom where worn, reinforce the hardware anchor points,the rest will be a breeze.

    Even adding some surface to the rudder and so on should be easy.

    I will post pics to keep interested souls up to date, when the weather breaks.

    Merci for your attention to details.

    AC coming up this next week.

    All the best.
     
  8. catenahalf
    Joined: Jun 2008
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    catenahalf Junior Member

    Yet another Kite restore

    I too am a proud owner of a Kite. I picked it up at a local boat auction for $100. With neglected mast, boom & daggerboard. Rudder is all delaminated and only good for a pattern. Sail looks pretty good. Not sure what hull# it is; there is a very faint dymo looking label that resembles #383...just not sure. There surely isn't a metal mfg's ID plate like I've seen on a real early Kite.

    From what I can tell the boat is pretty stock, no ports, or non factory hardware.

    There are some rather large soft spots on the hull and deck. I can hear some of the foam rattling around. The other kite owners on this thread have motivated me to crack her open.

    Hope kitesailor and BobBill come back. My email attempt to BobBill got bounced and still waiting on kitesailor---thanks for the photos kitesailor, they are encouraging; great work!

    Dan
     
  9. kite sailor
    Joined: Dec 2009
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    kite sailor Junior Member

    Almost there

    So I we have the Kite put back together now and we have the first coat of paint on her, after the primer of course. She looks great in red! So according to all the literature and pics I can find Kites left the factory with a boot stripe, I'm still debating doing this... opinions? and if yes what color?
     

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  10. BobBill
    Joined: Oct 2009
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    BobBill Senior Member

    Kite Dinghy Restore

    Most sported white boots, but whatever you want...here is mine, but I may not do with stripe after I finish the hull work...

    Cat, I would think the rudder is salvageable, with a bit of sanding, epoxy glue and glass. I have original, but will add one from Laser II later. Am turboing this Kite a bit, with foil rudder and rig from Force 5 to compliment original equip. Why not?

    All the foam should go per Clark above, and I agree. ]

    I will be cutting 4 access ports in deck sides and maybe adding some bundled pool noodles instead of foam, which gets water logged.

    The soft spots may only be areas where the matrix has broken down. Mine are flex areas behind and either side of dagger slot. I thought they were flat spots, but now believe them to be designed and am reinforcing with thin glass and epoxy down center of hull/stem.

    Will post pix later.

    The big job will be separating hull and deck. Am using multi tool to dig out the poly in the deckjoint and will see how effective that might be. Very tedious work. I will clean and reinforce fastener backings and add a tow ring forward and reinforce dagger board aft section abeam with some carbon and epoxy...some paint and name and that is it.

    Maybe Kite sailor can detail what needed further separation as he popped off his deck, like dagger trunk etc?

     

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  11. kite sailor
    Joined: Dec 2009
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    kite sailor Junior Member

    A maiden sail

    Hey all,

    Well this past weekend our goal was accomplished! We even toasted with "Lime-in-de-coconut" cocktails. What a triumph, she actually sailed.

    She arrived around 10 Friday morning and we thought we'd be in the water by noon and cruising, but alas it was not meant to be. We had forgotten one very critical measurement throughout the entire time we were restoring. After all our hard work the daggerboard was too thick for the well now.... to quote Homer Simpson, "Dohh!" Let this be a lesson to all others who are waiting for their day to fly in their own restored craft, make sure everything fits along the way.

    So my dad and I set out to do the only thing we could think to do. We got out the hand drill and the circular sander, we didn't have a belt, and he took the first shift of the slow grinding process of fairing the board down to size, and I went off to get the varnish we would need once we got the extra inches off the waistline. It took the better part of the day trading shifts including some hand sanding luckily the board is mahogany so it is soft, but we got it down to size. And at that point I was glad we did not have the original dagger, since it would have been covered in glass and would've required an altogether different approach to its downsizing.

    That night and the next day we waited as several layers of varnish dried, and yes we lightly sanded in between 220 grade. We were heavy with anticipation. By the way, anyone who might be refinishing a dagger should make a note that hanging it from the ceiling allows one to finish both sides simultaneously, good to know.

    Finally, the next day, Sunday, we were ready to sail her. The wind was a gusty one from the west, so for us that meant a land breeze. So we were sure to expect turbulence, and shifts. We started of great both myself and Dad in the boat and we were at sea for less than 15 min when a shift of about 90 degrees had us over on our side. We were both ok and we righted her and were very pleased that even on her side she floated so much higher that she had hardly any water in the cockpit once upright. This was an accomplishment for before the restoration she would be nearly swamped after a knockdown.

    We continued to sail for the next couple of hours and even capsized a 2nd time, but righted and kept on. She is so much more nimble than before...I believe it will take the better part of the remainder of the season to master her again, but that will be a great joy. And by 2011 I hope to take her 'round the north horn of Boston Harbor.

    Enjoy the pics and thanks for all your help and advice.
     

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  12. kite sailor
    Joined: Dec 2009
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    kite sailor Junior Member

    more pics

    More from the little red kite's maiden voyage
     

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  13. Doug Lord
    Joined: May 2009
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    Kite

    Congratulations-have fun!
     
  14. BobBill
    Joined: Oct 2009
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    BobBill Senior Member

    Kite Dinghy Restore

    Nice! Am green with envy...

    I note that you hung a different rudder on it...is it a Laser tip up?
     

  15. catenahalf
    Joined: Jun 2008
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    Location: Southern California

    catenahalf Junior Member

    Here are some photos of my Kite project.
    The red kite is one I bought from a boat auction. Shown is my attempt at separating the deck from the internal stiffener.

    The internal shot is of the bonding found around the mast step socket and the bow shelf. This stuff is so strong that I can't break it apart.

    While I was unsure what to do next I found a local guy selling a blue one on craigslist. Unfortunately, he broke the mast transporting it with the mast up (???!!)
    I do have both pieces, thankfully. This hull is much more sound than the red one, and one that needs no stiffening. Although the deck has some soft spots, which, if I get aggressive about it, I'll stiffen on the deck surface. I'd be curious if anyone has built some vacuumed glass sheets with a non-skid pattern pressed into them.

    As you can see with the blue one, I have traded a soft hull for one with serious gelcoat issues. Looks like it sat in the water waaaay too long, and some standing water in the cockpit has caused same damage.

    The bottom shot is the extent of the gelcoat removal on the port side.

    Boy, that is a beautiful restore Kitesailor! My daughters want me to paint ours red and name it "Radio Flyer". Now I see how nice it could look! What did you paint it with?
     

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