Self made Copper-Epoxy-mix as Antifouling? - And the 'same' ready made products?

Discussion in 'Materials' started by Angélique, Oct 23, 2009.

  1. HakimKlunker
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    HakimKlunker Andreas der Juengere

    Similar incident in Thailand: A copper/EP coating was applied before the (new) boat was completed. Until launch there was sort of oxidation on the surface which 'de-activated' the copper.

    I am not convinced about the whole idea: Epoxy is very resistent against water penetration, and all the copper particles are embedded in it; so only the copper next to the surface has a chance to be fully effective.

    When - a while ago - the British began copper plating their ships they did not cover with wood planks either, did they? ;)

    In my eyes all the expensive EP is better used to build up a barrier coating on which copper paint can be applied.
     
  2. Herman
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    Herman Senior Member

    But copper paint also has a matrix, in which the copper particles are held...

    And the above is also the reason I will be testing with water based epoxy resins. They create more porosity, at least, I hope. I might even do a test with diluted epoxy resins, although I would love to keep it 0% VOC.
     
  3. MikeJohns
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    MikeJohns Senior Member

    I didn't see them apply it, I was just told how they had applied it. But it was definitely the most successful patch. In consultation with Epirez (I think) they tried the water based 2 pot polyamide cured epoxy as the base. I would never have thought of that myself but apparently it was the best option. Unfortunately I cannot offer any more information at this stage but I'll try and chase up the study.
     
  4. Angélique
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    Angélique aka Angel (only by name)

    Too bad that the links in post #1 have gone dead. The guy applied it on his own boat and also offered copper powder for sale. I guess he stopped selling the powder and therefore took the article off line.

    However the website with contact info is still on line so he could be asked for his experiences with the system.


    As he's Dutch this could be an easy way for Herman to get some info before his tests. After all it's over two years on the boat now so there should be a beginning of experiences of the promised 10 years lifetime + info about the materials sepcs and how it was applied.

    The boat it was applied on is a plywood/glass/epoxy Brent Kohler (K-designs) Manta 12.65 x 7.10 m (41½' x 23' 3½") cat.

    Max amount of copper powder that the epoxy could take was mixed into the epoxy and then brought on to the boat. After curing it was sanded down to expose the copper. In the pictures I saw of it it was shiny like a pure copper bottom. It was applied in several layers so I guess that was for future sanding down.

    Boat was kept in Lelystad so I guess she was mostly sailed on the IJsselmeer and sometimes on the North Sea.

    Shortly after the works I saw the boat for sale so let's hope this guy will share his own experiences and knows how it's going on now or is willing to give the name of the new owner to get info about the sequel.

    I like the idea posted by Mike about blowing the copper powder into/onto the wet epoxy/paint surface, but I'm worried about the losses. Anyhow, good to learn more about that system too.

    Good Luck!
    Angel
     
  5. Herman
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    Herman Senior Member

    A few comments I can make already:

    Although somehow it was recommended to add 80% by weight copper into the epoxy, I would recommend much more, at least 200%. That makes a difference.

    I have already done some homework. Most copper powder is basicly the same grade, although what I got offered was roughly 96% pure. The rest is other metals and minerals. I do not feel this makes a lot of difference. I have also been offered more pure material, but the cost went up considerably.

    I will only be able to contact the guy above on tuesday, but I will give him a call. The boat indeed was sailed on the IJsselmeer, which is fresh water. My plans are for testing on both fresh water and salt water.
     
  6. Chuck Losness
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    Chuck Losness Senior Member

    Another thought on the blow on approach. If it is a new build and the boat is being built upside, before righting the boat maybe you could sprinkle the copper powder on the tacky epoxy just like you sprinkle sand on a deck for nonskid. Might be able to get a really thick coat of copper that way without a lot of mess or wasted copper. But would only work on a new build. Just a thought.
    I read a little bit about powder coating. I wonder if you could somehow ground the hull and positive charge the copper like they do in powder coating. Have no real knowledge of how that process works. Just another thought.
     
  7. pauloman
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    pauloman Epoxy Vendor

    one has to sand the copper epoxy coating after application and every now and then to expose fresh copper to the environment.
     
  8. Angélique
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    Angélique aka Angel (only by name)

    Found here a ‘‘Coppercoat antifouling long term review’’ owner isn't happy about it.

    He is a forum member so I guess he could be invited to the discussion if there are questions...

    I'll send a PM to inform him I posted the link here.

    Good luck!
    Angel
     
  9. benjy1966
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    benjy1966 Junior Member

    Ahoy All,

    Yes, I am the forum member unhappy with the Coppercoat. I agree though that the reason it's not particularly efficient is because there is simply not enough copper being exposed. If this is due to the water based epoxy not eroding fast enough or there not being enough copper powder in the original mix I can't say.

    What I can tell you is that for every kilo of epoxy (half litre of resin and half litre of hardener) 2 kilos of copper powder is supplied. It is supposed to be 99% pure and it is very fine indeed. This is the maximum allowed by law.

    I'm sure that more copper powder in the mix would help this to be an effective antifouling paint BUT and it's a big BUT, the reason why copper is so popular as an antifouling is because it is toxic to aquatic life! So one must question the wisdom of adding a higher ratio of copper to the mix for fear of causing damage to it.

    The way I have come to see it now is this: Coppercoat did not work for me on my boat. As an antifouling paint it is far from efficient but that said, no 'normal' paints I have used in the past were much better (except for stuff with TBT in it, that was excellent!). I still have the advantage that I do not have to paint my boat every year and this is better for the environment.

    I cannot blame nature for doing what she does and I for one will happily put up with some fouling if it means aquatic life is unaffected by my presence. You must remember that there are now so many boats afloat that collectively we must be having an effect. No doubt people will argue until they are blue in the face about whether copper in their paint really does effect the aquatic environment but I'm not prepared to take that chance!

    My real gripe with Coppercoat was the fact that I was lead to believe all I would have on my hull when I hauled in the spring was a light coating of slime. That has not been the case!

    It's been on nearly 7 years and is just as good/bad as it always was so I suspect their claim of 10 plus years is right at least. Despite it's inefficiency I still think it's the best way forward for cost effectiveness and environmental protection. I just wished it worked better as an antifouling!
     
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  10. Angélique
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    Angélique aka Angel (only by name)

    Thanks Benjy for the quick and comprehensive response and for the info in the review article [​IMG]

    Thanks again :cool:

    Cheers,
    Angel
     
  11. MikeJohns
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    MikeJohns Senior Member

    Unfortuantely I could not get the results of the trial conducted here a few years ago. The academic has gone and the results were for a shipping company that doesn't remember!

    Good work Angel.

    Benjy
    It's odd that there is a legal limit as to the copper powder, full copper hulls or copper-Nickle hulls are legal too. I suspect someone is confusing copper oxide rates with copper.

    I thought Copper doesn't leach much into the environment and has a surface contact toxicity rather than a leaching toxicity such as the 2CuO based toxins.
     
  12. benjy1966
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    benjy1966 Junior Member

    Ahoy all,

    As far as I can work out Copper in its pure form does not leech into the environment but at high enough levels can cause trout to lose their smell and get lost so they cannot find their spawning grounds and it can cause gill defects and other maladies in fish. Are levels high enough just from boats? I can't answer that.

    The problem (as far as I can understand) is that as the copper oxidizes and becomes cuprous oxide and this is highly toxic to aquatic life. If the copper can't oxidize it's probably not a problem but if it doesn't oxidize it's probably not going to work as an antifouling agent!

    I found out about the legal limit from Coppercoat when we were discussing why it wasn't working. If there's a limit, there's probably a good reason.

    I'm no scientist and I don't understand the finer points of the possible negative effects that copper (or its oxides) can have on the marine environment so until I do, I will live with what I have.
     
  13. MikeJohns
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    MikeJohns Senior Member

    The rate of pure copper dissolving is quite different to the pre-oxidised material.
    I really think with your regulatory body there might be some confusion between the copper oxide and pure unoxidised copper.

    Rates of loss into the environment from pure copper is extremely low. More copper would be present in a cities waste water from the wide use of copper pipes and particulalry slightly acidic stale water in pipes.

    Rates of copper sheathing loss are well documented and as I said before a bare copper or copper nickle hull is not yet considered an environmental concern.

    The copper oxide based antifouling is an entirely different case. But it will probably all get wrapped into one case.

    Copper Nickle is used extensively in shipping and industrial plants to pipe water and reduce internal fouling, the rates of loss are so small as to be negligable.

    I think if you made a case that copper pipes are common and a copper hull is no different then the coppercoat type application is just another type of copper plate.
     
  14. Angélique
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    Angélique aka Angel (only by name)

    Coppercoat recently won this price...
    About the max amount of copper law :confused:

    Coppercoat Info...
    Maybe someone can ask them what law that is . . ? ?

    (If someone does, please tell here, one would be enough I guess, preferably one with better English and more knowledge about the topic than me ;))

    And maybe they also have an explanation for this max amount requirement or maybe it can be found in the law itself . . ? ?

    Didn't see any info regarding this in the many PDF's on the Technical Specs page, but I'd only time for a quick glance at them for now, also many links to more info on their site, but didn't find the 'max amount of copper law' yet...

    Cheers,
    Angel
     

  15. pauloman
    Joined: Jun 2010
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    pauloman Epoxy Vendor

    I send copper powder worldwide for marine applications and copper powder and special epoxies to users across the USA. Have for many years. PM me directly
     
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