Self Designed Yacht

Discussion in 'Boat Design' started by TheMoodyMonk, Jul 21, 2010.

  1. TheMoodyMonk
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    TheMoodyMonk Junior Member

    i am off to the library today, gonna get all these books that have been recommended, at rwatson, i had a look at BS and to be completely honest, i really am not comfortable with a frame less yacht, it seems like one of those things that are recent developments that may be good in the short term but have serious flaws that haven't been tested or found yet.
     
  2. peter radclyffe
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    peter radclyffe Senior Member

    completely honest eh, thats a good start
     
  3. Northman
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    Northman Junior Member

    You have it absolutely right, it pays to be carefull. Before you go the BS-route, I would strongly encourage you to read carefully these two threads: http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/classification/transverse-frame-calculation-32584.html and http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/metal-boat-building/origami-steel-yacht-construction-248.html. It's a long, but very educational reading. Or you can just take a shortcut and look at the pictures in post 268 & 287.
    My advice is the same as Apex 1 gave you: Stay with steel and stay away from Brent Swain.
    All the best for your project!
    Walter
     
  4. TheMoodyMonk
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    TheMoodyMonk Junior Member

    Agreed, i read those posts, he doesn't back up any of his claims with solid figures or in the latter case facts, :rolleyes:
    I believe people like that are supposed to sell boats rather than design them.
    but then after reading those posts i think it would be better not to get into a BS Argument, haha

    Yup, in my experience it always is, although it cant be said about alot of boaties, they seem to be piss heads, well at the yacht club i sail with any way, one time i was eating a steak on a destination series and this fulla comes over and steals my plate.. my reaction was along the lines of WTF ? then shock of what acctualy just happened... my delayed reaction was probably due to the one to many beers i myself had consumed :p

    i found this really interesting and in depth book. Boatowner's Mechanical and Electrical manual - Nigel Calder. Thought it would a good aid on the electrical design. Any opinions on this text ?

    Davin
     
  5. TheMoodyMonk
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    TheMoodyMonk Junior Member

    Belay the end of that last post,
    just realized it had already been recommended.
     
  6. LyndonJ
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    LyndonJ Senior Member

    From purists :rolleyes:

    Your kidding right ? Did you read those threads? his designs are really poor engineering wise, look at the Tranvserve frame thead for his plans on the keel supports if you're an engineer.
    I've read his booklet and its like a poorly written version of our own Alan Lucas's ideas rolled up with all the practical sailor ideas and bucketloads of marketing. There's nothing very original.

    But it's bad advice to steer people towards that origami scam IMO
     
  7. rwatson
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    rwatson Senior Member

    Yes - Purists ! "People with very high standards" Arn't you one ?
    Enjoy ! You will probably live longer for it.

    But consider, say 60% of the worlds boats dont enjoy the benefits of formal naval and engineering design. Boats ranging from the builders of "Kon Tiki" - (how many "I am going to build a raft - how big should it be" threads have we seen) , to Indonesian fishermen desparate for a catch, to the builders of the Dhows that dont have a plan between them and build to suit the shapes of the roots of the trees, the "innovative" Chinese fishermen that feature from time to time in these threads etc etc

    I have been following the BS threads, recently and in past years. Lots of unanswered questions, and BS is no academic - but ....

    I would bet money he has travelled more blue sea miles in the last ten years on boats that he has built by himself, than any one of his antagonists. Am I wrong in your case ?
     
  8. tunnels

    tunnels Previous Member

    Frameless boats have been round since the world was flat !!! even the cave men didnt have frames on there logs and when they hollowed then they still didnt have frames !! have a look at aircraft construction and see how many frames they use anywhere in the whole plane .:confused:

    By the time you get all the junk inside theres enough stringers, girders, and semi frames of sorts to hold most of the important parts anyway.:eek:
     
  9. pdwiley
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    pdwiley Senior Member

    If you're going to build a steel boat, I'd recommend getting the following books:

    'Steel Boatbuilding' by Tom Colvin.
    'Boatbuilding with Steel' by Gil Klingel.
    'Steel Away' by LeCain Smith and Sheila Moir.

    George Buehler's book 'Backyard Boatbuilding' is aimed at wooden boats but there are a ton of plans included and permission to build from the plans. I personally love the look of his 'ARCHIMEDES' design and it could easily be built in steel.

    Tom's book has everything you need to build a gaff rigged pinky schooner including lines & offsets and permission to do so, if your fancy runs that way. It's a deliberately complicated boat to illustrate all the bits so I'm NOT recommending that you do, but you can. The book is a gem especially if you're interested in old rigs as Tom has examples of a number of them with full drawings and rigging plans.

    Gil Klingel's book is pretty good on how a person working alone manages, it has some good techniques etc.

    Steel Away has a lot of interesting chapters on details of boats, it's a good overview.

    My other observation is, find somewhere secure and preferably out of the weather to build your boat. Start scrounging NOW for things you know you're going to need. Some are going to be dependent on the final size of the hull you pick but it's better for example to have a 20 HP engine paid for & ready to drop in than a 40 HP engine that you don't have and can't afford. Do not buy any electronics at all until the very last moment as the things break and/or go obsolete far too quickly.

    Wynand's advice re hull size is well worth taking note of. Boat volume and displacement increases FAST with length, a 45' boat is a big expensive project.

    PDW
     
  10. magwas
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    magwas Senior Member

    The debate circles around "you don't need additional frames for small boats" vs. "you need frames for big boats", and "they do take beating in real life" vs. "take a look at the calculations, *******" which is kind of not talking about the same topic.
    I do think the construction method itself is an ingenious one, you just have to do proper calculations and add some framing where/if necessary.
    Thinking about structural mechanics of origami boats and ways of incorporate framing in a way which is best aligned with the building method must be much more productive than the name-calling you are both doing right now.
     
  11. LyndonJ
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    LyndonJ Senior Member

    I would have said pragmatist rather than purist.

    Brent's his own worst enemy, he has a clever way of putting a hull together quickly but no knowledge of the limits, the loads or even the rules of thumb. His approach is build it and add framing as it fails and his designs have failed. Pragmatic designers would say that's poor.
    Purists have you bracketing parts of a frame that analysis says is never loaded, I know about purists and standards !

    Brent's marketing and his responses to real concern over certain aspects of design and construction stink worse than a 2 day old road kill on a Darwin highway.



    Added:

    I meant to say there are some brilliant frameless designs as Tunnels said. Bruce Roberts has some, Van de Stadt has some and there's a lot from Dutch designers. Frameless goes way back long long before the Brent Swain Origami thing. But they all understand the limits and what makes it work. That's where Brent goes awry .
     
  12. Northman
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    Northman Junior Member

    Well said! And you should add Dudley Dix to your list. Here on one of his designs from his homepage at http://dixdesign.com/dix38pil.htm:
    "Construction is of steel using a stringer system ... Bulkheads are structural and are bolted to tabs on the stringers. ... Excess weight is trimmed out by eliminating unneccesary structure. Most metal boats have transverse framing in addition to bulkheads, resulting in excessive structural weight and wasted structure. With the use of structural bulkheads and semi-bulkheads, the transverse framing has been eliminated."
    But then he also does the necessary groundwork in order to be able to present a safe product to his clients:
    "Structural design is to the ABS Guide for Building and Classing Offshore Racing Yachts."

    Walter
     
  13. Wynand N
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    Wynand N Retired Steelboatbuilder

    The link to the Dix 38;

    I am the person whom had commissioned the 38 during 1991 and at the time it was called the Force 38 and on Dix sailplan drawing the F for Force is visible at the stern formed by the sheer striping....

    The design was for fast construction over a jig hence a frameless hull then. It did have plenty of longitudinal stringers though. At the time the deck was GRP fitted to the steel hull again to speed up production and one can have more detail and shapes on GRP than steel.

    Here are a few of photos of the Dix 38 I had built - lifted of the building "former" (poor pic quality - sorry) and sitting outside with her bigger sisters namely the Dix 57 & 65. Can clearly see it is frameless and radius chine. I would venture to say that I built the only frameless radius chine out there;)

    Also a photos of a vd Stadt 34 frameless built very fast inside a jig and as well as a pic of a Tom Thumb 24 hull (chap standing inside boat) built over a former as I did with the Dix 38. All these boats were built by me circa 1989 - 1992

    These are but a few examples of frameless boats out there that build fast, is well engineered and have proper resale value on the 2nd hand market. And they look cool too.
     

    Attached Files:

  14. TheMoodyMonk
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    TheMoodyMonk Junior Member

    Ok, Brent Swain, stay away from him, does this list really need to get into the whole BS arguments ? lol as amusing as i find the arguments and the how raked up people get over this (as puck says, "those things that do best please me that befall preposterously") lets all just kick back on the matter and let bs do his thing but steer people away from it when we can yes ?
    another matter, I am interested in doing a study on a couple yachts designed by Micheal Kasten.
    Any opinions on this fulla ?

    Cheers Davin
     

  15. rwatson
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    rwatson Senior Member

    yes - well said MM. Looks like it has been really advantageous with all these great references to other frameless boats. You have the advantage of "picking the eyes" out of all the great ideas around.



    ( ........ and still Brent Swain goes long distance cruising every 10 months or so, in a boat he has built himself, and manages to re-sell one every year I guess ..... hands up everyone doing that - you lucky people)
     
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