Seaworthiness

I appreciate, Guillermo, that we're deviating off topic, but I'll wager a crate of our 'Black Sheep Bitter' against some of your fine Rioja, that this will not be so.

And for a couple of reasons: The first is that adventure on the sea and mountains in particular, is intertwined with our culture, history, literature and tradition. Secondly, the 'outdoor lobby' of sailors, mountaineers, walkers, etc, is both well organised and huge in this country and has a tradition of militancy which has lead to an constant increase in our rights over the last 70 years. ironically, for a body that is often at odds with 'the landowners', it enjoys strong Royal patronage.

Finally, outdoor education of children again has a long history in the UK and has survived many serious incidents, with the Cairngorm Disaster in the 70's and Lyme Bay in the 80's being the most significant. These did result in many changes including the establishment of the Adventurous Activities Licensing Authority. The Government has allowed this body to be established and staffed exclusively by sailors, mountaineers and canoeists, without involvement of politicians, lawyers or insurance companies. The AALA has established systems of safety that are robust without impinging on the adventurous nature or fun of the activities for the kids. It now enjoys the total confidence of both the Government and those working full time with children in the outdoors, although it still has some way to go in building the confidence back up of school teachers and others who only work part time with children outdoors. But the Government has recently started a scheme to help with this, but of course it has to be done against the background of constant press stories of our increasing litigious society, many of which are entirely untrue.

I'm not saying we all don't need to be constantly vigilant. But I don't see any political party thinking there are votes to be gained by introducing any legislation in this direction.

 

I really envy you, clever country! But don't underestimate the strength of European bureaucracy. I gladdly accept the Rioja-Bitter bet, as it is always a win-win situation, if we enjoy them together
Cheers

 

It's a date!

But I have to shoot off now for last business trip to the US before Christmas. So I'll wish you, Vega et al, 'Happy Christmas', and I'll speak to you in the New Year.

 

The same on my side. I'll be back on the 25th.
Season Greetings to everybody!

 

I'm with a Crag on this one. Fortunately no one in The Netherlands, (highly regulated country in other fields), would think of these kind of regulations in nautical meters. Idea that authorities prevent people to sail small open boats, or that yacht have to ask for permission each time to leave the harbor because weather might be to rough or similar nonsense, just doesn't appear here. This kind of things are responsibility of the skipper. Boating is huge here, rules and their implementation is very relaxed and every thing is going OK, very few serious accidents and deaths.

 

Seaworthiness and legislation, an unholy alliance!

Definition of the word seaworthiness
It is a quality describing adequate design, scantlings, and condition of a boat.

• Designer states clearly how many have been built and what conditions they have faced.
• Scantlings must be in accordance with the the design. Localized reinforcement after launch is an ominous sign.
• Condition of boat must not compromise design or scantlings. Wear, fatigue, corrosion,... is 24/7 and boat must have life span designed in at the beginning.

Seaworthiness must be proven
Proof is taking the boat to sea and returning to land unassisted.
The boat is considered equal to the weather and sea state it has faced.
The crews related experience, or analysis of log books, will expose reactions between the boat and the conditions to ascertain how close to the limit it was.

Elements of a seaworthy boat
Bouyancy
Must support weight of crew, cargo and a frightening quantity of water. Accidents happen and a seaworthy boat must have the ability to ship a certain quantity of water before stability disappears.
When a boat ships water at an uncomfortable rate, the limit has been reached.

Stability
When stability is compromised the boat is not equal to the conditions it is facing.
This also applies to self righting mono hulls. When this distinctive design feature comes into play, the conditions are close to overwhelming other design elements.

Directional stability
A boat without directional drag or thrust will assume a beam on position to the sea. This is the most unfavourable position for a boat to be in, but unfortunately the most natural. A rudder is integral to the design, and losing steerage leaves the boat dead in the water.

Adequate scantlings
When the boat breaks up around you its all over.

Ergonomics
Human comfort is essential. Wether it is a trapeze, dinghy thwart, cabin or a head. When the boat begins to lose functionality for its crew, fatigue and distress follow.

Seaworthiness is common sense, based on proven design and is easily understandable. The longer people hang around a boat the more obvious its qualities and limitations are.




Any boat can be regarded as seaworthy by these standards and in fact that is the claim of every designer, builder, and owner at present.Legislating boat design, construction, and use, will make for a less enjoyable experience forever after.Maybe fibreglass boats can last 50 years, but I can guarantee you that they will start going to the scrap heap a lot earlier if seaworthiness is legislated. And the replacement fleet will not be an improvement. The price of boats will rise. Build your own boat in the back garden and get your ticket to freedom inspected certified approved tested warranted licenced and registered for the first year.

Licencing or permitting the crews leads to disappointment. Approved crew still get into the same trouble in the same weather in the same boats.The only difference is that they have social approval. That social approval will expire every 5 years. If you dont resit an exam or reapply, your experience will be null and void in the eyes of the law. You suffer instant memory loss and are a liability to yourself and society. Like letting a drivers licence expire.


I do not believe in social approval or assistance, as the solution to a private individuals safety at sea.
Taking responsibility for your own self preservation is the the biggest mental hurdle faced by sailors today.

 

Hi all, I have had a bit of time to read all these post's and see that no one has really mentioned Multihull's apart fom Mike John's.

Could this be that most would agree that the most seaworthy boat could in fact be a Multihull ?

I see that a lot of the talk is about capsize, and I would asume that we are talking about wave induced capsize, so I will ask,..... has anyone heard of a multi having a wave induced capsize ?[with its sails down]

Below I have some notes that the late Lock Crowther, one of Australia's most respected designer's, wrote on wave induced capsize. This came from several pages in his design book.

It is interesting to note the size waves needed to capsize a 40 foot cat compared to a 40 foot mono.

It was also interesting to see RHough's comment earlier in post #72 about using a series drogue from the bow of a vessel as a survival tactic. No one mentioned that in fact a series drogue is run from the stern......... a parachute anchor is from the bow.

I look forward to your comment's

Dave

 

"has anyone heard of a multi having a wave induced capsize ?[with its sails down]"

Yes, and with a parachute out earlier, and no sails up, and the guys spent three months on the upturned boat.

And the same thing happened again, apparently with drogues out, 8 days ago. Three dead.

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2003481622_catamaran17.html

http://www.kgw.com/news-local/stories/kgw_121506_news_crew_sea.11c89a7c.html

And from memory, sails may have been down (or was it just a storm jib up????) when Lock's brother was lost when his boat flipped, but that was a long time ago and collision may well have been involved.

The recent multi flip that worried me was about 20 miles off Sydney Heads, with a 43' Chamberlain cat, but it was racing at the time. It happened just last season.

I sail multis and so do those nearest and dearest to me. I note that most of these incidents resulted in no loss of life.

But you did ask........

 

Hi CT249, yeah i know of a few that have gone over from driving them hard, and I saw the one you had link's to on another site, but the link there said nothing about sail's down, but did mention the horrific storm that every Pro fisherman new was comeing day's earlier.

I suppose what i'm really getting at is it seem's that multi's are a better raft than a mono in really $hitty weather. 3 month's on an upturned raft would be better than trying to sit on the rounded bottom of a keelless mono, certainly better than treading water 'cause your boat has sunk in 4000m, hopfully not with you still attached.

And seeing as this is about seaworthiness I'd reckon i'd rather be on the boat not being rolled in 12 foot breaking seas, but on the one that should be OK in up to 31 foot breaking seas.

Dave.

 

The humble rudder

G'day Dave,

I havent bagged multi hulls because they are seaworthy boats.
Conditional to weather and sea state. Like any thing else.

All boats reach a stage where they can be overwhelmed by the sea.
Even a self righting monohull.

When the limits are reached....
A multi tends to flip once, partially flood and stabilize upside down for the rest of the storm.
A self righting mono may roll several times, partially flooding and then stabilize rightside up for the rest of the storm.(Unless the *#"!ing keel snaps off.)
Recovered vessels of both types, and survivor experiences I have read suggest this to me.
Both situations are disheartening for the crew, and calling for rescue begins to look reasonable. Undertaking self rescue is rarely practiced now.

Bigger boats stand up to bigger weather and seas, and I dont mean just performance.
I consider that displacement is as important as 'stability' for seaworthiness.Stability is a function of gravity versus bouyancy, for all boats.

I am interested in the nature of different boats, not the best one.
The nature of a boat dictates the appropriate tactics to employ in heavy weather. Accepting the flaws of a chosen design, and the consequenses of it being overwhelmed by the sea, is responsible and seamanlike.

By the way I think an integral rudder supersedes the number of hulls.
There should be a sacrificial bottom half, and a skeg supported upper half at least. Any boat without steerage has a big problem.

 

Maybe solid flotation in a self righting mono is the silver bullet?

The whole concept of seaworthiness to my mind consists of two points.

1. That the boat remains afloat, regardless of conditions.
2. When the worst is over you can propel the remains of your boat to land unassisted.

That requires seamanship.
Seamanship is hard to practice if your boat breaks up and sinks.

:idea:I am gonna print t-shirts saying this.

 

May I buy one

Drogues
There is nothing in the news about wave conditions, meaning were they still short like early in a storm or had the storm been going on for a while so that long waves had had time to build up? Drogues are good tactics early in a storm, but when a storm is a few days old and long waves has been built up, then it's often better to sail. But again... if the boat is a Pogo 40 and accelerations are 0.44Gs, then the non-professional-non-racing crew may not be in a state to do that

Rayk, you use both "you" and "the boat" in point 2. Do you include sea kindliness in point 2?

Mikey

 

I like solid flotation more and more...

Give me some time to draw something. The idea has only just occured to me.(edit: Oh... the t-shirt! I am considering making the actual boat now.)

I was thinking along the lines of the boat surviving the ultimate storm,

• the hull remaining intact
• bouyancy being solid
• self righting
• with a functioning rudder

This is an excellent position to be in to undertake a self rescue.

Sea kindliness...
I cant do much about this during a storm.
My highest priority is to keep the crew on board, breathing air.
It is sort of like designing a car which can drive away after a head on highway accident.
People are kind of squishy, and cant be reengineered to absorb the deceleration involved. Even if restrained securely, internal injuries occur.

But the point is that if the boat can provide a self rescue platform after the storm, the surviving crew can get going again.

Regarding tactics, I intend that the crew do whatever they see fit.
Run before it, stream drag devices, lie ahull, whatever.
My design goal is to provide the final backstop when tactics fail.

thanks Mikey

 

Bingo!

Here is a yacht design that belongs in this thread.

 

You write well Rayk, but I don't agree with that you can't do anything about sea kindliness in rough weather. You certainly can -

What's the point if the worst is over and the boat can propel you there but the crew is too beaten up and tired to do anything?

Take a boat that is very flat bottomed and it will have higher vertical accelerations than a deeper one, now take one that is very wide and it will have higher transverse accelerations than a more narrow one, take one that is short and it wil have higher longitudinal accelerations than a longer one

The problem with the above is that I have just painted a less extreme and in most cases slower boat

Mikey