Seaswirl Tempo 17 sole, mounts, stringers?

I got alot of demo done today. Lots of clean up and floor / transom stuff. Here's a link to the whole album for your amusement.

https://picasaweb.google.com/gillyn...authkey=Gv1sRgCJDF3MWy3fLupgE&feat=directlink

By the way, in the album, I'm going to take a pic of the boat broadside to indicate a new day and more progress. That makes looking at all those thumbnails make a little more sense.

I'd like to pick your brain about some specific areas. In particular:

https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/hcdS_cquA_bf8bWt19kYjKHCuTx9N85ff0vacwuIzpg?feat=directlink

This is a closeup of the gap that exists between my stringers and transom. Any suggestions on what I can use to get back in between there to clean up the transom down to clean 'glass? If I use something like a piece of sandpaper wrapped around the end of a long screwdriver, that would do it, but that would take forever. I can get stuff like chisels and all that to clean off most of the rotten wood back there. I guess I can go buy one of those skinny belt sanders or just enjoy a day in the sun sanding with the screwdriver method.

Also, another specific question, in this picture:

https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/jN8Vpu34Q4PnN86t_Av-GKHCuTx9N85ff0vacwuIzpg?feat=directlink

You're looking aft, close to the floor on the right side. Sorry for the wires. That bare area is where the engine mount block was. You can see the rear one in the back of the pic. Notice the buildup of 'glass from the hull to the engine bed. It's over 1/4" in some places. Of course, it tapers off to just the hull but there's ALOT of buildup between those blocks. I'm thinking since I'm going to be putting in a motor with a little more power, instead of individual blocks for the fore and aft mounts, I should use one long piece for each side, thinking that would better distribute the additional power. The overall engine package is (I believe) shorter too, so I can move the bulkhead that I pulled out here:


https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/Uhz4IrZO7fSUeOIL3gEX4aHCuTx9N85ff0vacwuIzpg?feat=directlink

Aft a bit. My question there is, IF I should make one long block (out of wood, then laminated with 'glass) for each side of the engine to accommodate for the additional ponies, would I have to grind all that "buildup" down to bare hull? I bed I would. Fun.


I will have more accurate dimensions soon of the new powerplant. I wasn't able to pick up the Rat Raft donor boat this last weekend, but I should be able to tonight. Once I have the donor, I can measure everything and make a game plan for the Seaswirl.

 

Your getting there !!with all the rubbish out its not that bad !!

The stringer is so so typical of what should never have been done !! Looking closely the woven roving does not appear to have any csm glass under it and it definitely hasn't got any over the top !! to finish and fill the gap id sand the transom ply panel and then glass it first and push the glass way down into the crevasse to the hull after its hard then fill the end of the stringer with polyurethane foam and shape it so when you glass it wont fall in the hole !! Same both sides !!
You will need to sand off the bulk of the glass where the engine mounting blocks were and just lightly sand the stringers as well !! The woven roving over the edge of the stringer and onto the bottom in true reality is not doing very much at all !!one it is short on resin so will not be stuck very well any where !! have seen this a million times . The woven looks impressive but in reality its as weak as wet paper !! One its never been wet out properly with resin and second should have csm over the top and thirdly the corner coming down onto the hull bottom is the place where it will simply snap off because the corner is sharp and never been radiused before it was glassed and last only 50% of the glass is actually doing any work !! The orientation of glass fibres when you making anything is really important and just half of what's there is doing anything useful ! when you sort out what you intend to do with stern drives and motors then we need to talk glassing and how and what could be best for you !! Remember bonding onto a old surface the surface needs to be sanded to 100% bare uncontaminated glass totally clean !!! the bigger the bond surface area the better the stick-ability of the new glass !! For me woven roving has no part in any of the reconstruction !! double bias yes !! woven no !!
So if you passing your glass and resin supplier check out double bias with a csm sown on the back side saves time and wet out really good is easy to lay and strong as !!!

The pictures as really great by the way !! thank you !! the more detail we see the more help and advice we can all give !!

 

no need to grind the glass absolutely to the hull laminate just make sure its flattened and the old glass is well bonded and not loose any where . Side mounts this should be done in stages first the stringer needs glassing from the transom as far forward as is possible csm double bias csm !!
Then a gusset or knee from the side of the stringer all way to almost the top of the transom wood packer that needs to be replaces with new plywood to what ever thickness the stern drive needs ( could be 40 mm plus !!)and glassed in first and its needs to be glassed then fit a solid timber mount for the motor to sit on at least 2 foot long each side shaped to fit the hull and fit the stringer and the rear fit round the knee as well if it gets that far . Bog it in place making sure the wood has been coated with resin a couple of times before bogging in place and cove all the corners with a 15 mm radius then glass it in !!
Bog needs to ooze out from under the wood when you press it in place and the ooz can be used to radius with ! Bog can be made from Talc, Aerosil ,and microfibers and just your laminating resin !! Aerosil just thickens , talc and microfibers give it guts And don't over catalyse when you mix it !! adding all those thing to th resin to make bog slows it down so 2% catalyst should be heaps !! should be hard in a hour !! The same mix can be used when you fit the side knees bog under where its touching and cove the same radius always cove internal corners lay down csm as a bedding glass then your double bias+ csm and finish with csm over the top as well !!!
Have jumped the gun a little here !!

 

After doing a copy and paste and blowing up some of your pictures to see more clearly what's there
I see your centre part of the transom is sticking out the back of the boat away's !!, looks about 18mm or so !! is that right ?? that will account for it being made up in 3 pieces !!
I would certainly rip the whole of the centre section completely out and then make a complete new one the required thickness for the new stern drive !! The side panels need to have there re-glassing done before the new centre section is fitted and glassed into place !! then repair the outside skin and glass it totally before the stern-drive hole is cut and any holes are drilled any where for towing eyes etc !!

Zooming in and taking a real close up look at the woven roving on the stringers !!! There's so little resin been used there's holes on the cloth where there's no resin at all in some places !!

I love photos !! they are great !!. So pictures from the donor boat as you take it apart would be useful as well They will help you when its time to reassemble into your boat !!

 

I'll review your notes later, wanted to post some pics of the Rat Raft. This is the donor vessel. Correction - this is the HIDEOUS donor vessel. I was going to use it to troll around my local lake but it's SO UGLY I don't think I have the courage to.

https://picasaweb.google.com/gillyn...authkey=Gv1sRgCIWY95X-5Oj71QE&feat=directlink

The motor runs great outdrive (pre-alpha) works, no water in it, and shifts smoothly. The trailer is even better than my old (single axle) one. Interesting note, the engine package is about 6" longer from transom to front mount than my 4 banger 140. That means I'll lose about 6" of already precious cabin space, but I think it's still worth it.

Damn this thing is ugly.

 

Sometime someone thought it was beautiful!!

An INLINE 6 ! they always run smooth and usually quiet ! lots of torq and get up and go might find the economy a little better than the 4 ! bigger so uses less to do the same amount of work !!

Unusual front engine barer and mount !! Wood or steel ?
Some where there will be the hydraulics for the drive unit trim that will need to be mounted !!
Before you take the stern drive out take careful note of the height of the plate on the stern drive in relation to the bottom of the boat ! I see its has a fishtail attached to make the unit trim better so another plus !! so when you remove from the old boat then make a template of the hole from thin ply and you can move the hole up a small amount say 5mm or so! Set up is really important for performance and gives better steering etc. !
There's a lot of weight sitting right in the very back so the boat could sit a little deeper in the water !! All looks good and I am very sure you will be very pleased when it all done and the better performance and like having a new boat !!

 

Good eye. That front ... "mount" is a homemade affair that is made of welded up steel bars. I'll have to source the correct part for that for my install. It just might be the same as my OMC, I don't know about that yet. The hydraulic power pack is mounted right to the (I don't know the right term here) inside transom mount. I can't find any of that double bias 'glass with mat, I'll have to go to my local marine store and talk to em about that. I bet it's pricey stuff though. It might exceed my budget. Also, the gap in the stringers to the transom is more or less filled with the floor. The original construction looked like the transom was glassed in, the stringers glassed in separately, then the engine mounts were glassed in then the floor. The floor, or more accurately the floor's glass is what joined that whole mess together back at the stringer / transom union, and the floor filled the gap. My concern was I would have to shorten the stringers a little bit because the transom for a merc has to be thicker than for the OMC. I mean we're only talking about 1/4 inch or so, but I would have to shorten them a bit.

I didn't notice when I bought this pig last night (quite frankly because I didn't care), but this was a repower. And a crappy job at that. I bet this boat originally had a 3.0 like mine but some guy decided to try to put in that 6. I can't take pics of the detail because it's raining like crazy here all day. I would doubt anything about that install is worth documenting except the order the parts come out in. It's really a shabby job. The floor was not done even close to right; there is no structure there at all. Whatever dimensions existed before are moot I think. Before I start ripping it apart, I'll post some pics to show you, but I wouldn't spend a minute on the water in that thing.

 

The stringer thing is not really that important !! the woven on top is doing next to no good at all !! if you need space then chop 6 inch's out so you can glass the transom properly then refit the stringer foam and just glass over it again !!
Double bias with the matt ( csm ) is not important just get 300 gram csm and put that down first with the DB over the top with another layer of csm to cover the DB and roll it all out together at the same time !!.
Take notice of the direction of the glass fibres as you doing the job you will see the strands will be doing a lot more work than before !!. DB glass will drape over and round things better then woven and is easier to work with and uses fractionally less resin !!

 

So here's my plan. I'm going to use the best plywood Home Depot has to offer. 3/4" ply is actually 23/32 thick, and 1/4 inch ply is actually 7/32 thick. My hull is 3/16th thick, and overall the transom needs to be between 2" and 2 1/2". I'm going to extend that all the way past the stringers. I don't have to, it's just easier for me. Now, in order to reduce confusion, I calculated everything in 32nds. So, the transom needs to be between 64/32 and 80/32, and my hull is 6/32 thick already, so that means I need to have between 58/32 and 74/32 of plywood and glass. That means 2 layers of 23/32, and a layer of 15/32 laminated together would leave 13/32 I can play with for the glass.

I'm going to order some 1708 and csm mat from Jamestown Distributors and get about 5 gallons of polyester resin from my local West Marine store. I'm going to order 6 yards of the 1708, which comes in 40" wide rolls, and I haven't determined how much mat I'm going to order yet because I haven't calculated the area of the floor yet. In any case, I'll have a bunch of both kinds.

My plan for the glass is to use 1708 on the transom, engine mounts and tabbing between all that and the floor when it goes in. If that is not thick enough on the transom, maybe double up on layers or just add mat, whichever I have enough of to do. same for the mounts, 1708 plus mat. My question for now is, how thick is the 1708 going to be when cured? I plan on making a few dummy piece of ply with 1708, and ply with mat and ply with 1708 plus mat to find out. I just have to be accurate with the thickness of the transom, it can't be over 2 1/2", or Im going to be doing ALOT of sanding.

Also, since I'll have some 3/4 left over, use that to make my gussets, and ideally cover with 1708, if any is left, otherwise I'll use mat on those. I can get mat cheaply just locally to me, so I'm not worried about getting enough of that, I just want to make sure I have enough 1708.

Once that is done, put in the floor, which will be fitted already, and soaked and covered with mat so all I'll have to do at that point is tab it all in and let it dry.

I already know how I'm going to make my mounts, and where they have to be to accommodate for the new longer engine, I just have to make sure they're strong enough. The engine only weighs about 80 lbs more than the 4 banger and only generates about 15% more power but better to overbuild and make it back to the dock.

Time to start gathering materials.

 

Now i understand why we changed !! talk about confussion !!

After looking at your post and all those 32s if and inch measurements I completely understand why its necessary for you people to change to metrics like we did back in the 1970s
Makes no sense to me at all !! cant even get my tired brain to think like that any more !! wow!!


The best way is to throw all you old measuring things in a draw and lock it and just use metrics !! I worked with old guys and they were impossible would get silly measurements like 1 foot , 2 inch's and 7 millimetres the tapes and rules we used had both imperial and metrics and that was not good ,so we got the boss to bundle up everything with imperial measurements , didn't mater what it was and dispose of it and we all use just metrics !! It only took a few days and after that was never a problem again !!
I still have all my 3 foot folding carpenters rule , builders steel rafter square all in feet and inch's , When I look at them now makes me wonder why the hell we ever had that system !! its so cumbersome and hard to work with !! same with weights and litres , Kilos and litres is far easier to use !!
But Boats the conversion has always been in feet and no one wants to change that even after all this time metrics just don't seem to fit !! and cant even visualize a 4.5 mtr boat but a 13 footer no problem !! and if some young guy says he's got a 12 mtr yacht it doesn't register !!
I been where you at and made the change and believe me its painless !

 

I completely agree the metric system is by far more logical than the imperial system. I actually have 2 separate tool boxes, one with standard stuff in it and one with metric. I mess around with American trucks and Japanese motorcycles so I need both. PITA. When you say "it won't register" you're more right than you know. The forms I need to fill out to register my boat don't have an option for meters, only feet

 

Day three of rebuild:

https://picasaweb.google.com/gillyn...authkey=Gv1sRgCJDF3MWy3fLupgE&feat=directlink

I used this SCARY THING to remove the wood that had not rotten

https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/fX3aPS2CA7xwkQEp3o_dZ6HCuTx9N85ff0vacwuIzpg?feat=directlink

It removed to much material so fast, it made my head spin. I had that transom ready for sanding in 20 minutes!

https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/GoAFdrhxcfJGla58nMeDDqHCuTx9N85ff0vacwuIzpg?feat=directlink

I shortened the stringers...

https://picasaweb.google.com/gillyn...Wy3fLupgE&feat=directlink#5878315851490415378

and ground down the area in front of the original engine bay to make room for the new (longer) engine:

https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/ZynLfBMhJEsXy7EpxK5UwaHCuTx9N85ff0vacwuIzpg?feat=directlink

That's about all I got done today. I'm pretty tired because my daughter gave me her cold. She's so generous.

I purchased all the lumber I'm going to need (I think) along with epoxy rollers, quart mixing containers, and other miscellaneous stuff. Fiberglass is coming, and this week I will head to my local West Marine to pick up a few gallons of polyester resin. If I can get some sleep and get over this dang cold, I could make more progress. I need a nap.

 

Update: I'm very excited, I cut my transom pieces today. I made a template out of 3/8 ply, and cut two pieces out of 3/4, they'll fit perfectly. I'll laminate then tomorrow with some thickened resin, and then screwed together. I'll pull the screws out and fill in before I cover with CSM. Then its time to install. I didn't take pics because 2 pieces of plywood probably isn't interesting to anyone but me

 

https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/ZQfsOptIpSBlJ1CWxXyX16HCuTx9N85ff0vacwuIzpg?feat=directlink

Started laying up transom today. 2 layers of premium 3/4 ply with a layer of 1/2 sheathing grade in between.

https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/QsO5-8NTjDIVYX842MD-jKHCuTx9N85ff0vacwuIzpg?feat=directlink

screws in there to clamp it all together.

https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/1szRdsCih3HKFbd3XZl026HCuTx9N85ff0vacwuIzpg?feat=directlink

I don't care that the edges are overlapping a bit; I'm going to put a bevel on it and clean it up.

https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/QfJE3Gr_4a9M5JF0XKS0xaHCuTx9N85ff0vacwuIzpg?feat=directlink

ready to cover it with csm as soon as it's ready and install it!

 

Getting there !!

All looks really good !! and seems to be a good squezze out around the edges so must be well stuck !!
!!so with the 2 x 18 mm + the 12 you must have close to 50 mm total thickness ??
Like all you bleed holes as well that really good !!
NOW to sort the next step and make sure you get it in the right order !
The stern drive hole you have is bigger and needs to be covered over and later recut to the new shape this can be done at around the same time as you install the packer inside the boat while the glass is all wet so there's no secondary bonding taking place !.
Now fit and hold into place the new transom packer and check the old ply on each side which is thinner than the new packer so you will get a step BUT you also need to have a good 50mm wide glass strip exposed between the two !, this isolates the 3 panels from each other and is a really good way to strengthen the transom as a whole and in the event of the transom getting damage and possible leaks the water wont and cant seep from one panel to the next in the even of damage at anytime in the future !. !!

The outside of the transom should have the missing part filled with layers of glass to bring it to the same thinness as what is already there !! This would be a good place to use Peel ply and make the job nice and smooth so when its hard and the peel ply removed its just a screed of auto filler over the top and long board and paint undercoat then mark out and cut the stern drive hole ,plus drill the bolt holes etc etc after sanding etc resin seal the holes at least twice and glass the stern drive hole so make It fractionally larger to accommodate the layer of very wet csm glass !!.
If you have a friendly boat shop some where close by there is a proper Mercruiser jig to clamp , mark and drill with and saves a lot of guess work !!
Good pictures and keep then coming !! all useful !! good work !!