Seachoice fuel pump = Facet fuel pump

Discussion in 'Powerboats' started by sdowney717, Jul 20, 2015.

  1. whitepointer23

    whitepointer23 Previous Member

    Why do you think mech pumps can't handle e10. I have never had any trouble with several pumps of mine.
     
  2. sdowney717
    Joined: Nov 2010
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    sdowney717 Senior Member

    I have had 4 mechanical diaphragm pumps fail on the boat since 1998?

    I opened them up and the diaphragms were cracked and or hardened. Some are screw together, some are clamp together, I cut them open to see the failure.
    Just my experience, they all failed after couple of years. Some failed due to leaking valves. Twin engines so double the pumps needed, After the second set failed, I went with electric pumps. So far the Carter rotary last longest from my experience, but they dont seem to last any better than the rubber diaphragm pumps.

    I salvaged the mechanical pumps parts and have one diaphragm that is good. If I can make or get another diaphragm, then I could put the mechanical pumps back in.

    Pumps appear to be like the Ford marine carter pumps even though engines are IH 392..
    Look just like this
    http://www.summitracing.com/parts/crt-m6696/overview/make/ford
     
  3. whitepointer23

    whitepointer23 Previous Member

    Its 2015 so 4 pumps since 98 is not bad. I would rekit them and carry a spare pump .
     
  4. sdowney717
    Joined: Nov 2010
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    sdowney717 Senior Member

    http://www.rockauto.com/catalog/moreinfo.php?pk=297057&jnid=2&jpid=0
    I bought this pump, it has a marine rating.
    My last working Carter is this number. The one that failed had a different number. I have three carter style pumps, only one still works. So this will be the fourth Carter pump I will buy.
    The motors still run fine on these pumps, they just dont prime anymore, no sucking power. They all sucked fine when I first got them, so they wear out with not many hours of use in a boat.. Boat engine is not used a lot like car engine.
    I still think the internal pressure relief valves fails on the carters, and then they cant prime. It is a black rubber disk hidden inside which you can only view if you cut them apart. I think the E10 wreck that rubber over time. Maybe this new marine pump
    I bought they use better rubber. LOL! You think they would? I think they should.

    I read the Seachoice warrantee, they say you must return the pump, meaning I have to pay shipping to them and they will fix or replace up to one year. But why do that, why even spend another cent on a pump that might just keep failing. Then of course they might even say nothing wrong with the pump.
     
  5. AndySGray
    Joined: Jun 2014
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    Location: Cayman

    AndySGray Senior Member

    How easy would it be to add a second anti-syphon and dedicated fuel line - that would eliminate the harmonics/resonance in the system?

    Just a thought...
     
  6. sdowney717
    Joined: Nov 2010
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    sdowney717 Senior Member

    Not easy, I know what your saying a second pickup would have helped, but really just adds double the complexity. It would be easier to just use the other tank and close the center valve.
     
  7. sdowney717
    Joined: Nov 2010
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    sdowney717 Senior Member

    I put the pump on and it is working good.
    I did have a slightly loose hose clamp which was letting in some air on the suction side way further back down the line, not good for an electric pump.

    The Carter rotary vane puts out a good flow of fuel. So maybe the SeaChoice pump is ok, I will test it and maybe it can be a backup emergency pump.

    My layout using one tank split to 2 pumps works fine, if you have good pumps. Since I dont use the boat a lot, I dont need to keep a lot of fuel on the boat, so it is better to only have to deal with one fuel tank.
    That 3/8 fuel line feeds my MCCK gen, and the 2 main engines.

    On the Carter electrics, I run them to a Holley style regulator with a green alcohol proof made for methanol fuels diaphragm (so it will last in E10). One output goes to fuel PSI gauge, the other to an antisiphon valve which then goes to carb. Having the valve there prevents backflow of fuel if one pump is off. If that happened would be like letting air into the prime side and none of the pumps would work.
    And there are 2 antisiphion valves at the fuel tank outlet.

    Links to that diaphragm, fits holley
    http://www.ebay.com/itm/200770416106?_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT
    http://www.ebay.com/itm/Quick-Fuel-...Gas-/311320498857?hash=item487c25d2a9&vxp=mtr

    the black rubber ones will eventually crack, which does take a long time to happen.

    If I did not have 2 large canister fuel filters, I would not be required by USCG to have anti-siphon valves, as the entire fuel system pumps lines, are above the top of the tanks.
     
  8. sdowney717
    Joined: Nov 2010
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    sdowney717 Senior Member

    I found the problem I think. :)

    Was having serious odd issues again, kept thinking fuel pumps and fuel lines not my monel tanks!
    This is about 6 inches too short.

    And is split and maybe brass. It is from 1970.
    The tube is brazed into the threaded fitting, I plan to replace with 3/8 copper.

    [​IMG]

    Hard to imagine it even being functional at all.
    This pickup drops into the tank, but it drops into a pipe in the tank, The pipe seems to go all the way to the tank bottom. So a tube in a tube design, which may be why sometimes it worked.
     
  9. sdowney717
    Joined: Nov 2010
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    sdowney717 Senior Member

    Ok, today I cut open one of my failed Carter pumps.
    After taking off the top and seeing the white corrosion, I was not too surprised at the insides.
    This pump failed a few years ago, no longer could draw fuel.
    This was not experiencing rain, but it was not in a sealed bag. My thinking is corrosion due to E10 and also maybe galvanic corrosion started with E10 and water in the fuel.
    The steel spinner and vanes are not too badly rusted, they can be reused.
    The little relief valve is entirely corroded, can not be moved. It looks like it has a SS spring. The pot metal is terribly corroded.

    To me in my experience, E10 is like acid in your fuel. look what it did to the pick up tube.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    The shaft after it sat refused to turn. The SS shaft corroded into the brass bushing. So I cut it open to see what was the problem and wow look at all the white stuff on the inside.
    This pump was also having troubles spinning after the boat sat for a month of no use. I would have to manually turn the armature, then it would work. I can see why, I suppose the brushes to commuter were corroded.

    I still blame all my fuel system corrosion issues on E10 and the standard typical non sealed boat fuel design that vents the tank directly to the air. I owned the boat before the transition from mtbe gas to E10 gas and it has been awful experience so far with ethanol in my gas.

    I have left fuel injected cars sit for a few years with E10, and they will start right up without tearing everything apart.

    We last ran the boat last fall in 2015. So after rebuilding my starboard motor and having it run great on a portable tank with new E10. I decided to see if it would run on the boat fuel in the tank. Nope, smoked, missed, barely could run. So I have to drain out 35 gallons. I dont think you can leave fuel in my tanks for too long anymore. I did use Marine Stabil last year. But that stuff you have to keep on adding it or the fuel goes bad. Likely it goes bad anyway.
    The old gas from last fall looked yellow and odor was different than new gas, smells stale.

    My tanks are monel, I have read copper slowly adds to gasoline destruction, copper somehow reacts with gasoline. IMO, ethanol accelerates the fuel corrosion.

    I pulled the pickup tube from the other tank, and it was intact yet still slightly corroded. Years ago I stopped using that tank and pumped it dry. Since their is no E10 in the tank, the pickup tube survived ok.
    I did replace the brass pickup tube with copper like I did the other one.
    IMO monel tanks may not be good with E10 gas compared with plastic or fiberglass. Probably plastic is the only really good fuel tank material for gasoline today.
    I really wonder what the inside of the monel tanks looks like.
     
  10. Rumars
    Joined: Mar 2013
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    Rumars Senior Member

    Sdowney E10 has nothing to do with your problems.
    Your pictured fuel pump probably corroded after failure from the dissimilar metals and moist salty air.

    Yes Ethanol can corrode Al. But normally Al is protected by a oxide layer. The only corrosion from E10 I heard of was in the threads of some Al fuel injection parts. Oxide was damaged by the thread cutting and pressure and heat accelerated the reaction. Your fuel pump does not generate the kind of pressures needed to force E10 in threads. The proof is your carburetor. If E10 would be the culprit it should look the same as your fuel pump since it sees the same fuel and pressures and also has dissimilar metals.

    Yes copper accelerates gasoline oxidation, it acts as a catalyst. It has nothing to do with the ethanol content of the gasoline. That is why commercial gasoline contains metal passivating chemicals. If I would worry I would do it over the pure copper pickup tube, not the Monel tanks. In the old days of copper fuel tanks for marine use they where solder coated inside. So if you want to be perfect solder coat or epoxy coat your pickup tube inside and out. Ethanol does not corrode copper, water does (the green corrosion on the tube is your proof) and that is why tanks where solder coated.

    The tank venting directly to the air is standard in all installations automotive or boat related. If the tank it is not open to outside air after some time fuel does not flow because there is negative pressure in the tank. Some automotive installations use spring loaded valve caps to assure this. Good boating installations put the vent line in the filler tube or put the vent line exit higher than the filling cap so that the tank can be filled completely for storage and only a very small portion of the gasoline is exposed to oxygen and can oxidize. If you leave your tanks half full a lot more fuel will oxidize because of the exposed surface area. E10 binds water so oxidized E10 will in theory be a little bit worst than oxidized regular gasoline. The only way to avoid this is to use flexible bladders as fuel tanks.

    I don't know why people keep propagating this urban myths about E10. Yes there are some plastics that are attacked by E5 or E10. Just buy the E10 rated stuff. All newly manufactured rubber and plastic parts that come in contact with gasoline is rated for it.
    If you keep having trouble with your pumps you should check why not blame it on the fuel. It may be because of air in the fuel line (your cracked pickup tube would explain a lot including the cracked membranes of the mechanical pumps), the electrical system (for the electric pumps) or something else like to much pressure (carburetor without return line).
     
  11. sdowney717
    Joined: Nov 2010
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    sdowney717 Senior Member

    Somewhere I have pics of the inside of the carbs. They tend to get a layer of grey silt like fine powder in the bowls. I have also seen that in the working carter fuel pumps.
    I used to wonder if E10 was dissolving the filter paper, but now think it is a pot metal corrosion.

    Ok here they are
    https://photos.google.com/share/AF1...?key=WXJWOGsyeWg4Nm9qWGc0LUlkUjVRMmFOQVh1dWp3

    None of this happened before E10, so if the difference is E10, then this is the cause of the corrosion. I start with fresh fuel every spring.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    I sent these pics to WIX as a technical question, asking could their filters be disintegrating and they said stop using our filters!
    I switched then to Purolator, but still the problem exists.
    Consider if filters do not remove this powder, then it must be the E10 reacting with the pot metals in the fuel pump and carb. I find this to be fairly mysterious and also sad.
    Either that or paper fuel filters in my system disintegrate into dust, shed fiber like a lint drier.
    Paper is made of tree wood, maybe acidic E10 dissolves lignin, I really do not know what this grey dust like powder is.
     
  12. sdowney717
    Joined: Nov 2010
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    sdowney717 Senior Member

    https://www.bgprod.com/blog/the-ethanol-problem/

     
  13. sdowney717
    Joined: Nov 2010
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    sdowney717 Senior Member

    another dialog on chemistry on acidic ethanol
    http://chemistry.stackexchange.com/...-e10-fuel-becomes-harmful-to-gas-tanks-or-eng
     
  14. sdowney717
    Joined: Nov 2010
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    sdowney717 Senior Member

    People who say there is no problem with E10 are the ones who have plastic tanks, plastic pumps plastic injectors and not much metal making up their fuel systems. OEM car makers had to switch from metal due to corrosion by ethanol.

    Another problem, bacteria now live in gasoline with ethanol. Bacteria makes acids.
    http://k-100.com/hot-topics/water-and-e10-trouble-by-the-tank-full/
     

  15. sdowney717
    Joined: Nov 2010
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    sdowney717 Senior Member

    I made a discovery about my fuel tank.
    See I have had issues with pumps quitting.
    I thought I had fixed that by repairing the dissolved brass pickup tube, was short by 6 inches and also oddly split going up almost to tank top.
    But the problem did not go away.
    This time the problem is crud in the tank blocking the anti-siphon valve. Pumps would pump great, but them inexplicably just stop pumping fuel randomly. The anti siphon ball would stop the flow. Then take it apart I never saw any crud, the fuel would drain back down into the tank clearing the clog.

    I verified this by hooking up Holley red fuel pump to the pickup tube, did the same thing, so then not the pump.

    Getting depressed about it, then I simply dropped a tube down pickup tank hole, hooked up Holley pump, hey it is pumping real good about 4 gallons, then it starts having trouble, flow stopping. So take Holley pump apart and the fuel screen is entirely blocked with crud, very good, happy I have found the problem.

    Sadly this monel tank has no clean out port.
    So I removed the fuel screen in Holley pump, and I pumped out all the fuel over and over, pouring fuel back in the tank through a screen filter. Lots of gritty crud and some soft stuff cleared from tank. Then I started rocking the boat to slosh the 5 to 10 gallons in the tank while pumping the tank, and a whole lot more crude came out.

    So I know long post, but at least I know now what happened.
    I simply will leave out the anti siphon valve, boat never had one as OEM in 1970. Sure that anti siphon valve has a good purpose, yet exists also a safety issue if the boat engine quits because the anti siphon valve is clogged up.
    My idea is now any remaining crud in the tank will pass into the very large main fuel filter and all my pump problems are gone away.
     
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