Scarab 16

Discussion in 'Multihulls' started by Brorsan, Feb 6, 2011.

  1. jamez
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    jamez Senior Member

    There are no absolutes, a lot of it is down to how a boat is sailed. To me ( and this is not a criticism) the S16 is like a day boat with a shelter cabin. The Sardine Run on the other hand doesn't have cockpit to fill with water or channel it into the cabin and has much greater crossbeam clearance. It is also relatively beamier = more stable. I think the usable interior space of the 2 is probably comparable, just arranged differently. The designer suggests a budget of 6k euro plus sails.
    http://hensevalyd-english.jimdo.com/works-and-creations/trimaran-sardine-run-5-50m/

    Info on the Acorn is available at http://www.sailingcatamarans.com/ there is a link towards the bottom of the latest News page to a study plan showing the boat with different rigs and some pics of the first one under construction. You could buy a used tornado (for how much in Europe I don't know) and use the rig and fittings and maybe rudders etc. The boat is designed for this. A cat 6.5-7 x 4 metres is a handy size and has a lot of deck/net space.

    I have no idea what the Scarab 16 would cost to build in Europe. Relative material costs seem to vary greatly around the world. All you can do is get the materials lists and cost them out. Get at least 3 quotes for everything major. I found variation of around 50% in ply and timber quotes when I bought my materials.



    We have a similar situation with availability of modern multihulls in NZ. Other than GBE's the second-hand market is limited. If you don't want to compromise on the type of boat you want you need a big cheque book or get your hands dirty :D.
     
  2. Brorsan
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    Brorsan Junior Member

    What does GBE mean?
     
  3. dstgean
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    dstgean Senior Member


    Great Barrier Express

    Dan
     
  4. luckystrike
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    luckystrike Power Kraut

    Just had a look at the Sardine run. Sardine Tin would be a better name for it, when I look at the mainhull interior...:D. The price for the plan is 500€, this is 390€ more than for the scarab 16, or 7 to 8 sheets of good plywood here in Germany.

    A cockpit is a must in my opinion. You cannot sit the whole day on a trampoline. Ok, a higher step to the entrance (bridgedeck?) of the cabin is a must to avoid flooding it, but its no problem to do during the built. The cockpit is self draining in seconds because the transom is open.

    In my opinion every 18' trimaran or cat is a boat for sheltered waters only and in no way a boat for high waves.

    Brorsan, can you (or anybody who has the study- or building plan) tell how many sheets of ply are used to build the scarab 16? So we can make a rough cost estimation.

    Michel
     
  5. Brorsan
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    Brorsan Junior Member

    15 sheets of 6mm ply, 5 sheets of 9mm ply, and 3 sheets of 12mm ply. 60 litres of epoxy,
    210metres fibreglass tape, about 25 metres of 450g and 1200mm width undirectional fibreglass. + some smaller quantyties.
    I do fully agree with you Lucky in everyting in the last post :)
     
  6. jamez
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    jamez Senior Member

    Neither of them have much interior space. Having had another look I believe the SR has more useful space, that double berth in the S16 looks pretty tight.

    The important thing is to build the boat you want. Would you still be interested in the Scarab 16 if the plans were at the old price of around 475 euros?

    Your opinion based on what? Our harbour is very sheltered but can still get a nasty 2-3 foot chop in a 20 knot plus breeze. A big problem for small multis is adequate wave clearance. Punching through waves because you are going too fast to ride over them is only fun for so long :).


    Your 18 foot S16 re-dux looks cool. I hope you build it. All the best with it :)
     
  7. luckystrike
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    luckystrike Power Kraut

    Neither of them have much interior space. Having had another look I believe the SR has more useful space, that double berth in the S16 looks pretty tight.

    The "double" bunk is 1 Meter wide at the shoulder according to the PDF drawing on the Kendrick website, comfortable for one, cosy for two. Thats the reason I wanted a cockpit with 2 m long seats for Brorsam, so that he can sleep on it under a cockpit tent. When my measures are right, the bunk in the SR is 0,48m wide. Do you like to sleep in a coffin?

    The important thing is to build the boat you want. Would you still be interested in the Scarab 16 if the plans were at the old price of around 475 euros?

    Scarab is a well engeneerd plan with a lot of Experience from Ray Kendrick. I like designers who build their boats with their own hands. I see no real advantage of the SR in comparison to the SC. The price of the plan is a cost factor inside my own calculation. If a price difference is worth 1/3 of all my ply needed and all other aspects equal its not hard to answer the question. Otherwise you are right. If you want to build one particular boat, the price of the plan is minor.


    Your opinion based on what? Our harbour is very sheltered but can still get a nasty 2-3 foot chop in a 20 knot plus breeze. A big problem for small multis is adequate wave clearance. Punching through waves because you are going too fast to ride over them is only fun for so long :).

    I agree that adequate wave clearence is important for a small multi. The Scarab has 50cm in the middle and the akas way back in the middle of the boat, I think thats ok.

    My opinion is based on my experience gained aboard 18' microtonners and quartertonner, cruising and racing in the Baltic Sea where I spend a lot of holydays. And yes, I also sailed a Dragonfly 800 and my current boat is a Tornado.

    A 2 or 3' foot chop in 20 knots is very wet, but not dangerous. If you slow your boat down you should be able to handle it safely to reach shelter, even going to windward. What I'am talking about are 4 to 6 foot short and breaking waves in 25 knots, which is not unusual in the unsheltered areas of the Baltic Sea.

    Your 18 foot S16 re-dux looks cool. I hope you build it. All the best with it.

    Thank you, but I will definatly not build a scarab16. My workshop is crowded with my 30 Footer. I am just helping Brorsan a little. I think the SC is a cool boat and could be a usable too with some modifications, worth to be built.

    Regards, Michel
     
  8. Brorsan
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    Brorsan Junior Member

    And i realy apreciate the help from Lucky, and all you other contributing with thoughts of the S16 and other crafts.

    Someone mentioned earlier in this thread, that building a wingmast out of plywood could be done rather light on a smal vessel like this, could that be good seen to cost, or will the cost for sails and fittings (that else could be obtained from a slaughtered tornado) eat up the cost benefit so it cost the same as a used tornado anyway?
    Have started to look around, seen a few tornados for about 3500 euros, guess it is hard to get below that if the sails are not rubbish.

    It is a must for a "double" berth, there is no chance that i will get my girl with me if we are about to sleep in different places in the boat, the good thing is that we are used to share a 0.8m bed. But it sure will be tight in the S16 (stretched to 18) My plan is to take into a hotel some nights if there is constant rainweather.
     
  9. luckystrike
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    luckystrike Power Kraut

    Hi Brorsan,

    so where is the problem when you have the material list?

    If you have the material list you can calculate your boat. Add 1/4 to 1/3 for consumables and paint and trust on Ebay that you find a cheap rig and cheap fittings.

    E-Glas is standart all over the world, so you can buy it cheap on Ebay or the internet.

    You will need an Epoxy, formulated für glueing, sheating and laminating glas. West 105 for example, but this is very expensive here in Europe. If Sweden is inside the EU, I can give you a good adress here in Germany if shipping Epoxy is allowed. Or find a good one in sweden. You will have a boatbuilders forum in sweden, there you will find good advices for good and cheap material and suppliers.

    I like to help you, because you are a nice guy and your project is very interesting to me. I like to make good designs a little better.

    But I don't want to do your work. Its your job to find a good and cheap supplier and to calculate the costs.
     
  10. Brorsan
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    Brorsan Junior Member

    Absolutely, I realy dont exspect you or someone else to search for supliers and then calculate the cost for the entire boat, realy. I was looking for an rough estimate of cost before i spend time doing a precise cost calculation.
    So my question is, like i said earlier, do you people think it will cost around 5000Euro 7500 euro or 10 000 euro? (by guess and experience from other projects)(I have tryed to search for marine ply, but without sucsess so far)

    Now to another question. A tornado sailplan is about 21 sqm, the S16 about 16sqm, and the S18 about 23sqm. Sounds like a tornado would fit rather nice to a streached 16 then, dont you think?
     
  11. luckystrike
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    luckystrike Power Kraut

    Hi Brorsan,

    please reread my post no 6 in this thread. Building time will be one year minimum. If you have a open eye on Ebay and on forums on the internet the mast and sails problem will be solved like nothing. There is nothing to do on this now. For Example: My own Tornado is bought on Ebay and I payed 1500€ for it, Trailer included and with 3 sets of sails in good used condition.

    If you haven't found a rig until the hulls and structure are finnished, I give you a set of plans for a wingmast and a Tornado Mainsail for free. Promised!

    I think it's time for you to stop fiddeling around with dreams and thoughts and to put a structure into your mind and do some burdensome, but nessesary work!

    Answer the following questions:

    Did you find a better design than the 16 which is in reach for your for budget and work? (If your answer is "NO", go to question no 2)

    Did you make a cost calculation for the SC 16 to see if you can afford your dream? (If your answer is "YES, I can afford it"!, go to question no3 ... if "yes and I have some money left", order a set of Scarab 650 plans, if "NO", order a set of plans for the Goat Island Skiff)

    Did you do some scale scetches on millimeter paper for the Interior to see if you have sufficient room inside? Put together some big cardboard boxes and some chairs in your garage to get a 1:1 scale model of the cabin. Sit and sleep inside. (If your answer is "YES", I have enough room, go to question no 4 ... if "NO", return to the internet and start seeking again)

    Are you ready to work one year or more and 500 to 800 hours in your leisure time and have sticky fingers when your friends are on the beach or in the dicotheque? (if your answer is "YES", order a set of SC 16 plans from Ray Kendrick, if "No", buy a new playstation)

    You will see .. a few problems solved.

    If you need more space in your boat perhaps the original SC 18 is better for you, or go towards a monohull and look at the i 550. But you have to do some work on the SC16 first!

    Good Luck, Michel
     
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  12. Milan
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    Milan Senior Member

    Or something like this, cheapest tri possible.

    http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/garyd/Trimaran.pdf

    (It could use bigger sail area and bigger floats).
     
  13. luckystrike
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    luckystrike Power Kraut

    Here in Germany it will cost about 2500 - 3000€ including the stretching for the Plywood (6mm, 5 ply, Okume' Boatbuilding quality, but not the best one, *50€ a sheet, 8mm 55€, 12mm 75€), Epoxy and Glas and some nordic fir, structure and consumalbles, genrously estimated and without paint. Perhaps another 1500 for a good used rig and fittings.

    A Tornado mast is around 9 to 10 Meters (?) and much to long for your 18' Scarab 16 (standart mast 7m). Make it 7,5 to 7,8m max length. The Tornado Mast must be shortened. This is essential because a long mast effects the trim of the boat, especially the boats ability to withstand "dig in of the bows" and capsise over them!!!!!!! The sailmaker cuts off the top of the classic tornado mainsail and makes one or two new Sailbattens, transforming it into a Spuaretop. No big problem, it has be done earlier.

    I#am offline for a couple of days now, Michel
     
  14. Brorsan
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    Brorsan Junior Member

    Thank you Lucky.
     

  15. Brorsan
    Joined: Nov 2007
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    Brorsan Junior Member

    Thank you very much Luckystrike/Michel, and the rest of you. I got my questions answered, and i think there will be a scarab 16 (or 16 streached to 18) after the summer. But nothing is for surtain. For the now being i dont got anything more to ask, and I will therefor not continue this thread (except if i find more questions)
    Thank you again, you will for sure hear from me again :)
     
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