sailing without being registered anywhere

Discussion in 'All Things Boats & Boating' started by mikakun2012, Mar 26, 2012.

  1. Northman
    Joined: Mar 2007
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    Location: Norway

    Northman Junior Member

    I have to point out that I don't have any legal background. However, I have been looking at some used boats from outside Europe and went through the motions to figure out what would have to be done to import one.

    Not quite. You will have to document that VAT has been paid when you enter EU waters (at the first port of entrance). For you being French you will probably have a hard time to avoid paying VAT.
    I would be surprised if there wouldn't be a time limit for how long you can "wander around".
    Until recently, an owner of a foreign boat could leave it unattended in Norway for only up to 6 weeks, but that is now extended to 1 year (with the possibility to extend it with another year) - see: http://www.toll.no/templates_TAD/Newsitem.aspx?id=221814&epslanguage=en
    Norway is not a member of the EU, but most of the regulations apply. I suppose it's pretty much the same in the EU countries.

    That is correct. But it will not apply for your boat if you build it in India.

    Walter
     
  2. mikakun2012
    Joined: Dec 2011
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    Location: varanasi

    mikakun2012 Junior Member

    what about all those boats in europe that are for sale and with the status tax not paid

    (for exemple check it out, only boats in europe from 2007 to 2010 : http://www.yachtworld.co.uk/core/li...=&rid=119&pbsint=&boatsAddedSelected=&fracts=

    excluding turkey i count 3 on the first page, 3 on the second, 3 on the 3rd page... about 50% of them

    how would that be possible if they had to document that tva has been paid when they entered EU waters ? they are all non europeans non resident in europe that left their boat in europe and went back their country ?

    (just being curious as chances are small we ever go to europe with the boat.)
     
  3. michael pierzga
    Joined: Dec 2008
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    Location: spain

    michael pierzga Senior Member

    Im not tax paid. Your period inside the EU is limited. There is a procedue to "customs bond " the boat when not navigating to extend the period. Then the boat must sail out of EU waters for the day...then re enter. Ive done it for 17 years.
     
  4. Northman
    Joined: Mar 2007
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    Location: Norway

    Northman Junior Member

    I have no idea. Could be that legislation about foreign boats with foreign owners varies between the countries, but in any case, as soon you try to import a boat to the EU/EEC you will have to pay VAT and get it CE approved. That's about all I know for sure and was enough that I didn't go any further with this. I found the encounter with these rules and regulations a particular unenjoyable one and will avoid it if at all possible.
    Best of luck with your project!
    Walter
     
  5. CDK
    Joined: Aug 2007
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    Location: Adriatic sea

    CDK retired engineer

    The owners want to get rid of these boats but have no proof that tax has been paid. These are the honest ones. Because the sellers are private persons they do not need to concern themselves with tax laws.
    But if the new owner is an EU citizen and wants to register the vessel, the trouble starts. A fake invoice with a somewhat lower value sometimes helps, but the customs or tax officer may become suspicious and call an expert to assess the value.

    Even long after the transaction took place, in any EU port or marina, someone sent by the ministry of finance may spoil a sailor's day. They may not have the power of impoundment but they do take passports, licenses etc. and take their time to sort things out in their office.
     
  6. michael pierzga
    Joined: Dec 2008
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    Location: spain

    michael pierzga Senior Member

    The issue is more complex than my simple knowledge. I represent a NON EC client and the system works fine for him. If you are a resident of the EU , the rules are different.

    Consult a specialist.

    Laws are complex...every law has loopholes.... every EU state interprets the loopholes differently. Its a minefield. France is ferocious

    If you are willing to pay enough money .... loopholes open.
     
  7. CatBuilder

    CatBuilder Previous Member

    Does anyone have a referral to the type of specialist that knows all of the international flagging rules?
     
  8. yachtie
    Joined: Mar 2012
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    Location: queensland australia

    yachtie Junior Member

    Yes one can drop the anchor in the way but no one is allowed ashore nor any one is allowed to board. Custom gets shitty if you show a longer crossing time than usual. once I dropped the pick
    for the week end to be over before calling into port for clearance to avoid over time charges and on arrival they questioned me as if I were a criminal. But this is Australia, probably the toughest of the countries when it comes to Custom control.
     
  9. mikakun2012
    Joined: Dec 2011
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    Location: varanasi

    mikakun2012 Junior Member

    what about when you live the place (you get custom clearance saying you go in the blue), & stop at anchorage somewhere a few days/weeks... will they arrest you ?

    do you have experience thailand/indonesia/burma(mergui)/sri lanka/madagascar ?
    not so much navy they have those countries, no ports (for sailing boats)... so imagining it much more "flexible" (not necesarly the law, but its application). me will adapt to anything, just curious.
     
  10. Frosty

    Frosty Previous Member

    Thailand does not have ports for yachts!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Dont come to Thailand without papers --you will not be allowed entry. you will then be illegal. the fact that this was not of your making does not seem to bother them.
     
  11. philSweet
    Joined: May 2008
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    Location: Beaufort, SC and H'ville, NC

    philSweet Senior Member

    If you get desperate, check with the Cayman Islands and the Bahamas. I can't imagine why India has a problem with a boat built in India. Form a Co. and register it to the Co. Keep trying the India angle. If you don't like what someone says, Go back the next day and talk to some one else. Thats what I do in the US.
     
  12. mikakun2012
    Joined: Dec 2011
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    Location: varanasi

    mikakun2012 Junior Member

    frosty i have no idea what you're saying. thailand has ports for yachts ? i have no clue, i imagine not so many, in burma none that's for sure, indonesia ? in bali maybe ? but who says about going there without papers ? was asking about taking time anchoring around before arriving custom port/after officially leaving the country

    philsweet, india is a bureaucracy nightmare with an autocratic organization, and the law is saying an indian or an indian organization only can register a boat. there might be an exception somewhere for foreign residents, this i will check with administration (& one time will be enough !) to make a co in india i need indian associate owning 50% of it... i have friends i could trust however not sure i want to share ownership of the boat. if i was to register today i think i'd go for delaware or australie (or a country offering boat life span registration)
     
  13. michael pierzga
    Joined: Dec 2008
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    Location: spain

    michael pierzga Senior Member

    As captain it is your responsibility to enter a country at a " Port of Entry " .

    All coast pilot books will show the ports of entry and describe the clear in procedure.

    "Q" flag...I am under Quarantine .....may be flown if you must for weather or mechanical reason stop and anchor before clearing into or after checking out of the country.

    You play with fire by not immediately checking into a country, purchasing a cruising permit, declaring what and who is on board .

    Your boat may be impounded and you may be jailed.
     
  14. Frosty

    Frosty Previous Member

    No you dont check out then lay at anchor for a week or even days. Yachties are given a lot of responsability and are trusted to be responsable, please dont be the one that destroys this for us.

    When you check out you leave --some countries stipulate how long and at what time you will cross the bar.

    when entering foriegn waters you should check in at the first opportunity.

    Flying the Q flag in Thailand will annoy customs as they will then have to come and see you . In Phuket you are supposed to come ashore to the one stop check in centre on the shore.

    You are trying to negotiate round bad paper work --you can not,-- read rules and have all papers or be prepaired for fines and or imprisonment.
     

  15. mikakun2012
    Joined: Dec 2011
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    Location: varanasi

    mikakun2012 Junior Member

    dalai lama says learn the law to find a way around it.

    frosty, i don't know who is this "us" you 're talking about and how you get the authority to speak on their name. anyhow me and authority doesn't really mix well+group conformity & sectarianism give me itches all over the soul.

    so next time, just give your opinion or share your experience & knowledge but please for the sake of the idea of free thinking and consciousness (but we might not have the same understanding of the world "responsible"), don't bother using this self-given authority to give me order or the annoyance will really discard whatever you are trying to say and that could be good to know indeed.

    only irresponsible people obey blindly, by lack of free thinking abilities. and we are indeed living in a world where 99.99% of the population don't know what they do nor why they do it & i bet my *** you are one of them on many accounts (other than the boat thing).
     
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