Sailing Canoe Design

Discussion in 'Boat Design' started by NavArch Student, Mar 3, 2011.

  1. ancient kayaker
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    ancient kayaker aka Terry Haines

    - good idea, and you can build the kayaks with that in mind -
     
  2. tspeer
    Joined: Feb 2002
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    Location: Port Gamble, Washington, USA

    tspeer Senior Member

    You don't need outriggers if you have a canoe instead of a kayak. An ordinary lake/river canoe will work well.

    I learned to sail by rigging my canoe for sail. The canoe was 16', fiberglass, about 40 lb. It had an aluminum gunwale. The seats were 1/2" aluminum tubes, bent to drop down from where they were bolted to the gunwales, with fiberglass seat pans. I had previously replaced the aluminum center thwart with a plywood portage yoke.

    From the local lumber yard, I got a pair of extruded aluminum tracks for sliding closet doors that were approximately an I beam in cross section. I ran these from the front seat attachment to the center twart. I made a thwart of oak for the leeboards, and secured it to the rails with U bolts so the thwart could be positioned fore and aft to get the right balance for the boat. The thwart had square pieces at the ends, making it an extended H, to support the leeboards.

    The leeboards were made from mahogany, with a tapered planform and flat-bottomed section shape, with the flat side outboard. The top ends of the leeboards tapered into a handle that was raked aft. Shock cord from the end of the handle to the front seat held the board out of the water when retracted. The reason for the rake to the handle was to give the shock cord some leverage when the board was horizontal. A pendant with a hook on it was attached to the handle of each board. To lower the board, I pulled the pendant aft and hooked it on the center thwart. To raise the board, all I had to do was release the pendant and the shock cord would do the rest.

    I bought a lateen rig for a Sunflower sailboat, which was the same boat as a Snark, but with a plastic skin on the styrofoam hull. The sail was 45 sq ft, which about the right size. I drilled out a wood block to serve as a mast step and fiberglassed it to the bottom of the boat under the forward seat. A hole through the seat pan served as the other support for the mast.

    I never did get around to making a rudder for it. I just steered with a paddle, with the occasional sweep stroke to bring her around faster in light air. The leeboard twart was adjusted to perfectly balance the boat, so the paddle was quite adequate.

    The canoe sailed nicely. Sitting on the windward gunwale was enough to provide as much righting moment as was advisable for the hull. There was a noticeable twist to the hull when sailing it hard. With the lateen rig, all the spars are shorter than the boat, so the whole rig could be demounted and carried rolled up if desired. The rails for the leeboard thwart were far enough apart that a passenger could still sit ahead of the center twart, or cargo carried there. It only required 4 bolts to remove the whole rig, leaving just the mast step and the hole in the forward seat pan as the only permanent modificaions to the canoe.
     
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  3. ancient kayaker
    Joined: Aug 2006
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    Location: Alliston, Ontario, Canada

    ancient kayaker aka Terry Haines

    Tom, that's a remarkably light canoe for fiberglass. I had a 14 footer that was closer to 75 lb. I sailed that one too but I didn't know much about it back then and I thought I needed an outrigger.
     
  4. tspeer
    Joined: Feb 2002
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    Location: Port Gamble, Washington, USA

    tspeer Senior Member

    Well maybe my memory is fading. For sure it was 60 lb or less - definitely not 75 lb. It was only two ply fiberglass, IIRC. You could see the bottom flexing in waves.
     
  5. ancient kayaker
    Joined: Aug 2006
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    Location: Alliston, Ontario, Canada

    ancient kayaker aka Terry Haines

    My old fiberglass canoe must have been made by an out-of-work battleship builder, nothing would have made it flex. It was caught in a fire, suspended from the roof and fell about 8 feet onto concrete when the plastic rope holding it melted. It cut the wood boat under it in half, but the drop merely caused a small crack on the inside skin. I am sure it would still have floated but I was looking for an excuse to dump it ... the concrete wasn't damaged.
     
  6. peterAustralia
    Joined: Mar 2006
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    Location: Melbourne Australia

    peterAustralia Senior Member

    no outrigger, one outrigger or 2 outriggers

    With zero outriggers your sailing canoe needs a little more beam than otherwise to give it some stability

    2 outriggers, there are kits out there. Some kits are dual inflatable amas (outriggers), Chesapeake Light craft have a kakak outrigger kit (a bit pricey, but look nice)

    If going with a single outrigger, your outrigger needs to be a little longer than it would be if you have two. With one outrigger you really need a little weight, adding an extra 5kg of water bottles to the top gives that extra bit of stability.

    Here are a lot of ideas that might suit

    www.tacking-outrigger.com

    from this page, korokai seems to best suit your ideas
    there is a popular sized article from 1937
    Easy rider kayak has a single outrigger kit (and doubles)
     
  7. NavArch Student
    Joined: Mar 2011
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    Location: South West Pennsylvania

    NavArch Student Junior Member

    To everyone:
    Thank you so much! Every post has been so helpful.

    I really like the look of the Chesapeake Light Craft double outrigger kayak. It is a little expensive but looks fun.
    I also really like the Korari as a single outrigger.
    Haha the canoes also sound like a great idea!

    Now the final decision is going to be tough.
    Thanks so much!
     
  8. peterAustralia
    Joined: Mar 2006
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    Location: Melbourne Australia

    peterAustralia Senior Member

    hi

    just a little more information

    here is a Youtube video of a double outrigger.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qdKvBG_viLE&feature=related
    from solway dory (some nice boats)

    There are other kits available too, on Youtube, if you look up canoesail, you can find some information


    I once built an 8ft outrigger (deep vee type) for a canoe, it worked very well. 8ft was chosen as plywood sheets come in 8ft lenghts! I think this is a reasonable good length for an ama for a double canoe. From memory had a volume of about 40L, cant remember the dimensions, I think i did it by eye, it gave low drag, I was very happy with it.

    If you are going home made and crude, an 8ft deep vee outrigger can be made in a weekend easily using plywood and epoxy. Based on my experience, I would build a light frame first and then add the plywood later (staple the plywood on or use nails with a really wide head (drag will me minimal)

    If going down the single outrigger route, then your ama (outrigger) should ideally be a bit longer, maybe 10ft. (8ft is too short for an ama if your only having one outrigger)

    Did you notice Arara by Peter Mirow, is a nice boat. He is currently almost finished his 30ft tacking outrigger called arpex. (nice friendly chap)

    -

    here is a youtube video of a canadian canoe with a single outrigger. He put up 120 sqr feet of sail! gee that is a lot of sail area

    If you follow his YouTube videos you can see that he has progressed from a single slim aluminiun crossbeam (aka) to two more solid wood crossbeams

    early on
    http://www.youtube.com/user/tillyhatcam#p/u/9/_qnt9yxrsN4
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KNYGFA8JoJI&feature=related

    then later
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kfpKUbsx5dk&NR=1

    so, if you are keen to be on the water sooner rahter than later, buy a second hand fiberglass canadian canoe. And then build two 8ft outriggers, or a sinlge 10ft outrigger. Add a rudder (or just use a steering oar), add some leeboard, get a rig from an old boat, and you have something that can take you a thousand miles.

    It depends on where you want to go
    If you are going in generally more sheltered waters, then the double outrigger (trimaran) is better. If you are envisaging going into generally rougher waters, then the single outrigger is probably better

    There is a 909 page book called canoes of oceania by Haddon and Hornell.
    In the third volume the authors relate to how double outriggers are common in more sheltered areas, such as the phillipines and Indonesia. But when you get out into the open ocean, Hawaii, Polynesia, Micronesia, Sri-Lanka, Madagascar, Nicobar islands, then the single outrigger (proa or tacking) totally dominate

    in my webpage, (tacking-outrigger.com) you can see what you can do by using an off the shelf canadian canoe and adding a single outrigger (seatle to Alaska) Not bad hey? Notice that Tim Anderson used fabric to deck a lot of his canoe, used simple leeboards, and how the front crossbeam is stronger than the aft crossbeam (this is more stressed)

    Not using outriggers at all is fine. A nice sailing canoe, say with 3ft beam is nice craft, you wont be able to go as fast though. My humble opinion is that a sailing canoe such as this is less likey to break (simpler) but is a bit of a risk in the open ocean.

    It really depends on your budget, time constraints, your skill, motivation, your location, what materials you have on hand etc etc.

    I have seen images of a couple of kids that used an Aluminium grumman canadian canoe, used an alumiunium ladder as the two crossbeams, and then made a trimaran (maybe their dad made it). You know what they did, they put camping chairs on the outriggers, faced inwards, and sailed around in nice comfy folding chairs.. (how decadent is that)

    If you need technical advice
    there is a book, building outrigger sailing canoe - author Gary Deirking (order online), also the yahoo group proa_file, lots of people are there, many have built canoes, proas, etc

    my apologies for overloading you with information.
    I promise that this is my last post in this thread for a long while

    peter
     
  9. NavArch Student
    Joined: Mar 2011
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    Location: South West Pennsylvania

    NavArch Student Junior Member

    Peter,
    Your thread was extremely helpful and enjoyable to read. No worries about information overload. Please by all means continue to post. :)
     
  10. peterAustralia
    Joined: Mar 2006
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    Location: Melbourne Australia

    peterAustralia Senior Member

    nah

    thats if from me.

    If you go through YouTube, you even find kids making double outriggers out of a canoe in 4 hours. They forgot the leeboard, but otherwise did ok

    put in sailing canoe into YouTube, and build the one you like best
    is 1.11am here and I have to go to work tomorrow

    will finish with a bit of light hearted YouTube clip,,, I was thinking, these guys.. nah you cant do that.. corrugated iron sailing boats,,, thats just unnatural

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GSF7c1cgFUM&feature=related

    have a nice life... I know when to quit (this is meant by me in a very nice way) good luck ...and.. have fun...
     
  11. ancient kayaker
    Joined: Aug 2006
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    Location: Alliston, Ontario, Canada

    ancient kayaker aka Terry Haines

    One note - don't know if it was mentioned before. From my own experience with an outrigger float on a sailing canoe the boat will likely go considerably faster if the floats are out of the water. If you have 2 of them mount them high enough so you can balance the boat with both just clear of the water. They will be there for insurance in the event of a gust, and their weight far from center will help make the boat less twitchy. I was surprised how fast a beaten-up, heavy old canoe could go sailed like that ...
     

  12. rallyhybrid
    Joined: Apr 2011
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    Location: lancaster uk

    rallyhybrid Junior Member

    Sorry to go off piste with this.
    Tiny Turnip, I'd like to make contact with you about your pedal cat project in an old post as we have a similar project in the pipeline. You can contact me on oaktec234@hotmail.com. I'm in Lancaster so not too far from you. Cheers, Paul
     
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