Sailboat Capsizes near Bermuda, People feared Dead!

Discussion in 'All Things Boats & Boating' started by oceancruiser, Nov 29, 2013.

  1. michael pierzga
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    michael pierzga Senior Member

    Countries should get into the habit of charging a yearly cruising fee for yachts.

    Many many countries do. It helps pay for the recreational boating infrastructure.

    No need to charge farmers for recreational boat infrastructure
     
  2. SamSam
    Joined: Feb 2005
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    Location: Coastal Georgia

    SamSam Senior Member

    Realizing that Haiti is one of those countries incapable of running itself would be a start to a solution. A solution to Haiti should probably have very little Haitian participation.
     
  3. oceancruiser

    oceancruiser Previous Member

    For rescue insurance to be a funding source it would have to be compulsory before port clearance was given. Pirates and people smugglers that generally get rescued through lack of equipement or crew, either don't bother about a clearance cert, and would not purchases rescue insurance.

    Why should all cruisers have to buy rescue insurance because of the few avoidable rescues.

    Our lastest that cost a fortune a American vessel with 5 I think, on board departed despite being strongly advised not to leave port because of a advancing storm. Fairly old vessel suddenly lost contact with no trace. Two criscross searches of a entire large probable area but to No avail. A connected person to the missing people spotted a shaddow on a satellite photo they claimed could be the vessel concerned begging publicly for another search and rescue effort be mounted.

    It was declined unless they could produce a photo with more clarity that would convince S&R to do another search.

    Before they went missing she sent a text message to a freind but omitted to simply put we are now at Lat --- Long.

    That would have saved heaps and might also have been a vital prerequisite to their fate.

    OC
     
  4. pdwiley
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    pdwiley Senior Member

    I would agree with you for organised 'round the world' races where participants deliberately go a long way south both to shorten the route and to get the benefit of strong winds. If you can afford the entry in one of these races, you can afford the insurance, or make your own arrangements (powered chase vessel etc). I got a bit pissed off at the costs of us (not NZ) rescuing Autissier and Bullimore.

    For general sailors close to a coast, the cost is pretty trivial. Easy to find them, pretty cheap to rescue. Not a problem.

    So I doubt there are many First World boats that are actually a problem anyway, and I have proposed a solution to that issue many times. Don't sell them EPIRBs without insurance and don't look for any recreational vessel that doesn't trigger an EPIRB. Problem would solve itself.... do whatever you like, but take responsibility for the outcome too.

    Note that this puts the decision back in the hands of the vessel's captain, not some nanny state bureaucrat who's likely never sailed blue water in his life. Oceancruiser and his like would have banned people like the Smeetons, Hiscocks and Tilman from ever leaving port.

    PDW
     
  5. oceancruiser

    oceancruiser Previous Member

    You forgot that it's not compulsory to have EPIRBS and there have been sufficient EPIRBS failures their signal not being received although they have been activated.

    All avoidable rescues are the captains responsibility, so charge them with the full costs, and if they can't pay confiscate their boats. That would solve the problem.

    And why just races what about solo record attempts which are not races, plus all cruisers private and commercial vessels.

    OC
     
  6. Petros
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    Petros Senior Member

    this was clearly not a pleasure cruise, and the stupid politically correct reporting left out the most important part. this was a ship trying to smuggle illegal aliens into another country ("undocumented immigrants" if you want the politically correct term). They would not meet coast guard standards because this is clearly a criminal operation dealing in human trafficking. This is why there were no safety protocols, if they got caught they were going to jail anyway, the more they could cram on the boat, the more cash they would collect from them. likely they just shoved them off without a skipper or crew, let alone any safety gear.

    The stupid policies by government agencies and the major news networks would not allow them to report was was actually happening.

    these criminals are no different that those that collect cash from Mexicans to pick them up in a truck on the other side of the Rio Grande to take them into the United States. sometimes the truck is there, sometimes it is not. sometimes they run out of gas or break down and leave the illegal aliens out in the Texas or Arizona desert. sometimes they entice attractive young girls with promises of jobs in America as a maid in a wealthy household or a waitress, and sell them into prostitution. It is a criminal operation, and the victims are the poor trying to escape the hell hole they live in.
     
  7. oceancruiser

    oceancruiser Previous Member

    Petros.

    Do you know how much they pay to get board.

    OC
     
  8. Petros
    Joined: Oct 2007
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    Petros Senior Member

    I would not know about a boat ride from Hati, could be a lot for someone poor, like $100 each. Thinking about making some handy cash with your boat?

    I have read they that those that come from south of the US boarder will pay $20 to $40 for a truck ride in an overcrowded moving van across the dessert, many die in from the heat in the summer. Most get caught and sent back, so they try it again, and again.

    there are more sophisticated ways to get across the boarder, and they might pay as much as $200 to have false travel papers, nice clean cloths to wear so they look like wealthy tourists on a shopping trip rather than desperate people looking for under the table work.

    Some of the "regulars" have their own more reliable network and means of coming across the boarder, they schedule seasonal work with a cash employer and show up on foot at the begining of the season, sometimes jumping a train or hitch hiking. They send the money they earn to their family, spending very little to live on here. Than intentionally get "caught" at the end of the season to get a free ride home, usually with meals.

    These types are usually hard workers and obey the laws because they do not want to get sent home before the end of the season. Unfortunately, along with them come very bad criminals, drug dealers, human traffickers, etc.

    They need to change the laws on immigrant work permits, so they can crack down on the dangerous criminals. but various political interests (trade unions, farm employers, etc), prevent any meaningful changes from happening. It is a real mess, and often the innocent end up in tragedy, and much increased crime in the boarder states.
     
  9. oceancruiser

    oceancruiser Previous Member

    Thanks but thats guess work. They should all rise up in there own land. Protest, overthrow the pimps, the drug trafficers, and people smugglers, corrupt officals and bannish them from the Island, demand the aid money be spent wisely and urgently. I understand the USA [ Hillary Clinton public Statement after the earthquake that the USA would not abandom there neighbours ] donnated $100's millions plus UN monies. Where HAS IT ALL GONE.

    OC
     
  10. Petros
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    Petros Senior Member

    likely into government coffers, to be distributed to the relatives of the government officials to rebuild their mansions.

    Unfortunately the USA can not dictate internal policies to foreign governments, even if presumably giving emergency aid. they often try to but short of an invasion and government take over, there is not much even the US can do when it gives aid money.

    These countries stay poor because they are corrupt from the top down to the bottom. No one but the corrupt prosper in a lawless society.
     
  11. michael pierzga
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    michael pierzga Senior Member



    People smuggling is a buisness..you will go out of buisness if you charge 100 dollars perhead.

    You cant get a bus ride for that price.

    Chinese pay up to 75,000 dollars to be smuggled.

    One of the resaons it is so difficult to close down the smugglers is that they hold the victims family ransom untill the fee is paid.

    You point out who the captain of the boat is and your family is in trouble.



    "Based on two of the principle smuggling routes - East, North and West Africa to Europe and South to North America - it is estimated that the smuggling of migrants generates around $6.75 billion a year for criminals operating in these regions alone.
    There are an estimated 3 million illegal entries into the United States each year: between South and North America, most migrants are smuggled in trucks across the border, though cases have been noted where travel is also done by foot, rail or even through dedicated tunnels.
    Some 55,000 migrants are thought to be smuggled from East, North and West Africa into Europe every year, generating around $150 million in revenue for criminals. Between 1996 and 2011 at least 1,691 people died while attempting desert journeys and in 2008 alone a further 1,000 deaths occurred as a result of sea crossings.
    The fees charged to smuggle migrants differ substantially based on the point of origin, with figures ranging from $2,000 to $10,000. "
     
  12. michael pierzga
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    michael pierzga Senior Member

    And before you spout your half baked zenophobic condemnation of Haiti you should study history.

    The US has dominated and Impovered Hati since its independence.

    The final blow was when the US forced Haiti to open its markets to the world. Then the US dumped millions of tons of US subsidized rice and sugar into Haiti, undercutting their farmers and ruining Haitian agriculture. By ruining Haitian agriculture, the US has forced Haiti into becoming the third largest world market for US rice. Good for US farmers, bad for Haiti.


    READ.... http://www.huffingtonpost.com/bill-quigley/why-the-us-owes-haiti-bil_b_426260.html

    Then You will have no excuse for your ignorance
     
  13. oceancruiser

    oceancruiser Previous Member

    But to be fair it was reported the palace was first to be repaired with the aid money and to a standard better than prior to the earthquake.

    In addition the roads where being sealed, foot paths channelled and curb where as they where not prior to the earthquake in the higher social ecconomic areas and not else where. The poorest where on the waiting list to rebuild there homes. Still living in tent city.

    Even had interviews with middle class damage victim stating he was far better of house wise and size. But by the same tokken to be fair I suppose it had to be to withstand the next earthquake, [ the Palace ] which will probably be stronger, more powerful and more devastating.

    OC.
     
  14. hoytedow
    Joined: Sep 2009
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    hoytedow Carbon Based Life Form

    That is bull. Haiti is mismanaged from within. One needs only to look at aerial photography of Hispaniola to see the difference between Haiti and the Dominican Republic which manages itself on a better model.

    http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/history_lesson/2004/03/why_is_haiti_such_a_mess.html
    "On another front, the Haitian revolution didn't fundamentally alter the Grand Canyon-like divisions between the classes. Newly free slaves formed a serf class that lived under conditions very similar to slavery—and a mulatto elite stepped into the shoes of the former French colonial plantation owners. Following the massive social and economic dislocations caused by its revolution, Haiti went from being the world's largest sugar producer to producing just enough to satisfy the Starbucks down the block, as by 1825 production collapsed to one-300th of its pre-revolutionary output, further exacerbating class distinctions. In many ways, Haiti's economy has yet to recover."

    In fact is Haiti an example of what lay in store for us if we do not mend our ways?

    "Additionally, greed, megalomania, and incompetence—punctuated by recurrent episodes of dictatorial murderousness—have defined most of Haiti's political leaders. The country's first relatively free elections took place only in 1990. Without any tradition of choice, the critical siblings of democracy—like government accountability, a fair judiciary, or the rule of law—have not evolved."
     

  15. oceancruiser

    oceancruiser Previous Member

    Well to be fair would you like to comment re this Take BY Bill Quigley.


    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/bill-quigley/billions-to-haiti-relief_b_2424729.html

    OC
     
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