Sailboat Capsizes near Bermuda, People feared Dead!

It was a statement he made and then a question he asked, I guess inferring two things, 1- the smugglers originate from the USA 2- smugglers and criminals from countries that require clearance papers will have their boats equipped with all the required safety features plus proper hygienic facilities.

Like on the clearance papers it would say Boat Capacity - 25 people, Life Jackets Required - 150.

He also asked about prosecuting the captains and crew members. In two of the sites I posted, it refers to prison terms for both. Of course that depends on if the benighted immigrants will point out to the Coast Guard who the captain and crew actually are.

 

Totally disagree with you Daiquiri.
They are not totally disconnected from reality.

1. I live in a real world and have sail many thousands off nms and all countries except the US as far as I'm aware and Probably the islands near by [ but guessing as they require permits before entering ] and most countries have these regulations for a reason.

2. The international agreements and the law of the sea and other conventions most countries are signatories to adhere to departure regulations and entry regulations. Try leaving a port with no clearance in the southern hemisphere and enter another port you will have problems, be fined, and any outstanding amounts owed in your previous port, plus fines, payment will be demanded before you can venture anywhere. Part reason as posted by SamSam.

3. In our world two countries have designated a special island, xmas Island, now over crowded so PNG is the new land they are told is to be their new home if they make it that far. A disincentive to others who might follow, as a holding Island for the people smugglers trying to get a free ride from tax payers in those countries either for a easy large dole weekly payment, free medical expenses, free hospital expenses, free superannuation, free education, free paid parental leave from work, large tax credits for children and interest free loans for home making, interest free loans for university education, and in addition preferential rental accommodation, free food banks, free xmas dinners for the whole family, free ambulance service, subsidized school buses service and free condoms for school children at the expenses of long time tax paying, law abiding conforming dress, food, decorum, behavior, values, ideological and social standards, existing citizens and existing correctly entered refugees or refugees on the waiting list.

One country has vowed they will never make it, be accepted into their territories as cuts have to be made in the fiscal budget if they where to accommodate them. All countries have a set figure in accepting refugees via united nations agreements through the proper channels as a social relief programme. These people are que jumpers and extremists and with no parental responsibility by putting their created children lives at risk. If they don't like where they are living and can't afford to feed themselves or children then they should not have children or they should apply through the proper channels for relief [ UN FOOD ] and relocation. [UNNESCO ]

4. Until now most countries have been following US standards procedures in some form or another and my question was to ascertain weather the US procedures off not requiring departure papers encourages these events. If departure or clearance is required then the authorizes must be turning a blind eye to the problem and they too are partly responsible for the problem.

5. If you want to take risks you take them on your own self only and not with unaware, unknowledgeable trusting children who depend on their parents for health, safety, well being, live and not to be taken on a journey where its almost certain their knifes and forks [ fingers ] will be handed in.

6. What has caused their desire for a better life. My guess is too many children in a land that does not have a safety net and support systems.

OC

 

Your thinking is simplistic......the people on those boats are not on holiday.

the people driving those boats operate outside the law and on a cash basis.

Perhaps one day in the future your country will be destroyed...then you will understand


hosting imagenes


subir foto

 

Come on, please - get real. We are talking about people fleeing from countries at war. Civil war, war of drug-cartels, war against terrorism, war for peace - you call it, they have lived it. Their choices and life perspectives are:
1) die of hunger or of disease
2) be killed by one of the sides at war, either intentionally or accidentally
3) live in the stone-age and in eternal extreme poverty, with no hope for a better future
4) take a chance and embark a vessel which might lead them to the "prosperous" Europe or US.

This is true, and it is the action which is being currently taken by the EU on the south-Mediterranean countries like Egypt and Libya. The problem is, these countries have their own existential problems and their law-enforcement bodies are often either not functional or are corrupt. Which is the way we wanted it to be, didn't we? Just like we successfully did the job in Iraq and Syria. We (the West, or some obscure but very efficient entity apparently acting from behind that curtain) are now actively working on bringing Iran to the same level. Perhaps Turkey too, why not? Oh, then there will be so many ex-Soviet republics to choose from, and let's not forget the sleeping Balkan bear, always ready for action. The perpetual instability as a factor of stability. Or, as Giacomo Leopardi (an italian novelist from 19th century) said it: "everything needs to change, to keep everything as it is".

No paperwork or CG permits can deal with or work against the chaos and desperation created by wars. The desperation due to stolen future of nations has been the most powerful motor for massive migrations throughout the history. We are now simply observing one of these historical moments, and some of us are either actively or passively being part of it.

 

What drugs are you on. Get real and stick to the thread and do not expand it into your terror postings and preachings.

Where is the war in The bahamas and drug-cartels, war against terrorism, civil wars in The Bahamas Jamacia Haiti and the Carribbean where this boat sank.

Your Quote
"and their law-enforcement bodies are often either not functional or are corrupt." "Which is the way we wanted it to be,"

No further comment you are part off the cause and probably creating it and probably support the collaspe of the UN.

They should all be charged with failing parental responsibilties, endangering under age children lifes for not providing safe and secure necessities to sustain life before boarding any vessel.

As I said before if they want to commit sucicide then leave the children at home with the grand parents and mother nature will grant them their wish at sea.

Don't save the illegal immigrants, corrupt officials or people smugglers captains, crew and passengers.


OC

 

From the CIA World Factbook (https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/ha.html) - Haiti:

"Since 2004, peacekeepers from the UN Stabilization Mission in Haiti have assisted in maintaining civil order in Haiti; the mission currently includes 6,685 military, 2,607 police, and 443 civilian personnel; despite efforts to control illegal migration, Haitians cross into the Dominican Republic and sail to neighboring countries; Haiti claims US-administered Navassa Island
Refugees and internally displaced persons:

IDPs: 357,785 (includes only IDPs from the 2010 earthquake living in camps or camp-like situations; information is lacking about IDPs living outside camps or who have left camps) (2012)

Haiti is a source, transit, and destination country for men, women, and children subjected to forced labor and sex trafficking; many of Haiti's trafficking cases involve children recruited to live with families in other towns in the hope of going to school but who instead become forced domestic servants known as restaveks; restaveks are vulnerable to abuse and make up a large proportion of Haiti's population of street children, who are forced into prostitution, begging, and street crime by violent gangs; Haitians are exploited in forced labor in the Dominican Republic, elsewhere in the Caribbean, and the US, and some Dominican women are forced into prostitution in Haiti; women and children living in camps for internally displaced people are at increased risk of sex trafficking and forced labor
tier rating: Tier 2 Watch List - Haiti does not fully comply with the minimum standards for the elimination of trafficking; however, it is making significant efforts to do so; the government has made no discernible progress in prosecuting trafficking offenders largely because Haiti does not have a law specifically prohibiting human trafficking; the government does not provide direct or specialized services for trafficking victims and refers suspected victims to donor-funded NGOs, which provide shelter, food, medical, and psychosocial support; no proactive identification or assistance for adult victims was reported; an inter-ministerial working-group on human trafficking and a national commission for the elimination of the worst forms of child labor hae been created (2013)
Illicit drugs:

Caribbean transshipment point for cocaine en route to the US and Europe; substantial bulk cash smuggling activity; Colombian narcotics traffickers favor Haiti for illicit financial transactions; pervasive corruption; significant consumer of cannabis."​

Haiti is considered possibly the poorest country in the Western hemisphere.

These people here, which we are talking about:


(here is the video: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-25110800)

are fleeing the extreme poverty, civil and drug-gangs war (yeah, they call it "international law-enforcement" activity), and are risking their lives for a better future.
All you have to do, if you want to understand how big and deep are their troubles, is to think about what could possibly make YOU take a decision to get on that boat and put your life into hands of ruthless traffickers of human beings, with no guarantee that you'll get out of it alive.

Did you see that picture? Take a good look at it and ask yourself how appropriate is to raise questions about the lack of paperwork, life jackets, survival equipment, captain licenses, private bathrooms and hand-washing on board that boat. Do you really think those things are the issue here? Step into the ugly reality of the real world!

That was Haiti, and this is what every other day arrives to Italy from Libya and Egypt:



What is the difference? Well, perhaps the language they speak. All the rest is the same level of desperation driving these people.

And in front of all this, your comment is:

I can only envy you for apparently being so well-protected and far away from these realities... Wish the whole world was a pink-colored place like the one you live in.

 

He's a New Zealander - there's a reason other than the scenery that fantasy movies are filmed there.....

Keep in mind that his country is the one where they tried to enforce their standards on foreign flagged yachts and wouldn't give them clearance until those yachts complied with some NZ idea of equipment, seaworthiness, qualifications etc. I think the term 'delusions of grandeur' is apposite.

He's right about clearances though it only applies to rich Western flagged vessels if you want to depart Indonesia. Their own vessels are exempt in practical terms if not in theory.

PDW

 

Yes we did try to impose safety regulations on foreign vessels for a reason. NZ has a large Search and rescue area to maintain and most on the rescues in relatively moderated condtions are foreign vessels and most are US flagged.

NZ vessels have to comply. How many NZ flagged vessels need rescuing or the need for search and rescue services to be engaged in other parts of the world.

NZ should receive a credit for saving other Search and rescue organisations worldwide money, time and resources.

On average a majority of rescues / searches cost approx $1m dollars each which is huge in our money terms. Why should we have [the tax payer] to pay for these seaches. We should adapt similiar charges like you have in the US to be attended and transported to hospital by ambulance. In other words uses pay.

NZ is not PINK unless you are seeing it and viewing it whilst on LSD.

OC

 

Thanks New Zealand for all the help you are when it comes to helping the rest of the world with all the capsized third world immigrant boats and ferryboats.

I don't know...is it even valid for you to whine about how much money it costs you for a rescue when you don't even pay your volunteer Coast Guard people?

 

That's a bit unreasonable. We don't pay ours either, but I suspect you're reading 'Coast Guard' in the context of your own, which is more akin to a coastal navy rather than a bunch of amateurs with small boats, a radio net and a sense of community.

That, BTW, isn't intended to give any credence to the whining about rescues of yachtsmen in the NZ SAR zone. A quick search doesn't give any sort of list of rescues over time let alone broken down by country of origin, so I can't say he's FOS but - I strongly suspect he is.

Our SAR zone is a lot bigger than the NZ one, and we don't whine about foreign flagged yachties (much). We save that for Indonesian flagged vessels which we'd be *delighted* to redirect into the NZ SAR zone.

PDW

 

The Coast guard has nothing to do with it. The Coast guard for your information is for harbor and inshore rescues.

I'm have been quoting Search and rescue a separate organization for offshore rescues. Our search an rescue uses ORION specially equipped aircraft, the forces and are extremely loaded with specialized equipment, come I Think through the air force budget.

http://www.maritimenz.govt.nz/Commercial/Shipping-safety/Search-and-rescue/Search-and-rescue.asp


http://www.maritimenz.govt.nz/Commercial/Shipping-safety/Search-and-rescue/SAR-management.asp

http://www.maritimenz.govt.nz/Commercial/Shipping-safety/Search-and-rescue/History-of-SAR.asp

Your Zar may be bigger but for the size off our country and the number off tax payers to fund it { approx. } 2 M people.
Let alone our area is in some of the most wildest and most difficult areas to operate in.

We don't need avoidable rescues in our area caused by far wealthier foreign world citizens..

Our coast guard have been very efficient most off the time and usually aren't involved in foreign yacht rescues.
QUOTE
"*We save that for Indonesian flagged vessels which we'd be *delighted* to redirect into the NZ SAR zone.* "

Totally inappropriate statement and provocative. You are suppose to accommodate them in you territories in accordance with UN conventions NOT redirect them.

Plus they arrived in Indonesia on non Indonesia flagged ships or Indonesia is engaged in people smuggling as a occupation money making venture, which is also against the UN conventions and treaties.


With Respect:::


"Quote"
Please keep threads friendly and polite to all other members; no politics or religion

Boat Design Net Moderator ::


OC

 

The 'no politics or religion' is a bit rich coming from you. Who started slagging off the USA based on a misunderstanding of a news report?

In fact, as you would know if you paid attention to world affairs, the overwhelming majority of 'asylum seekers' to Australia, departing Indonesia, arrived in Indonesia via aircraft not small boats (or any other size boat for that matter). They then boarded Indonesian boats, under-equipped and overloaded, similar to the one you were (incorrectly) blaming the USA for allowing to leave port, except that the Indonesian authorities *do* allow them to depart for Australian waters. No safety equipment, grossly overcrowded, no private toilets & showers etc etc. Why aren't you emoting over them, a lot closer to home, than a bunch of Haitians halfway round the globe? Why aren't you railing against the Indonesian Government for permitting those vessels to leave port?

As for your claim to have "some of the most wildest and most difficult areas to operate in", give me a break. Yours does go south, true, but it's a fraction the size of Australia's.

http://www.amsa.gov.au/search-and-rescue/sar-in-australia/arrangements-in-australia/

In addition you can't police it effectively except by aircraft as your Navy has no significant force projection or ice capability. So please don't exaggerate.

Can you provide me to a link showing how many foreign flagged yachts that NZ had to render assistance to in their SAR, broken down by year and flag country? I'd like to see for myself just how great this supposed problem actually is. My suspicion is, you don't actually have any data to support your claims WRT costs and origin.....

PDW

 

..... and *you* have the gall to attempt to chastise *me* for making what you claim is a political post?

You, sir, are a hypocrite of the finest water. You want to dish it out, but can't take being on the receiving end when someone takes exception to your remarks.

PDW

 

Actually you are wrong

" One country has vowed they will never make it, be accepted into their territories as cuts have to be made in the fiscal budget if they where to accommodate them. All countries have a set figure in accepting refugees via united nations agreements through the proper channels as a social relief programme. These people are cue jumpers and extremists and with no parental responsibility by putting their created children lives at risk. If they don't like where they are living and can't afford to feed themselves or children then they should not have children or they should apply through the proper channels for relief [ UN FOOD ] and relocation. [UNNESCO "

The international standard is clear...DUTY TO PROTECT.

When people flee war, famine....there is no limit

 

And UNESCO. Is not invloved.. The organization is called UNHCR.

The UNHRC interviews migrants and determines refugee status. This status is handed over to nation states and they must respond