Sail Plan update

Discussion in 'Sailboats' started by Ted Royer, Jul 18, 2018.

  1. Ted Royer
    Joined: Jul 2018
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    Location: Houston Texas

    Ted Royer Junior Member

    Hey everyone,
    I need help trying to figure out who to ask for help and how much to pay for this help.

    I have an old hull deck and mast Albin Ballad:
    BALLAD 30 (ALBIN) sailboat specifications and details on sailboatdata.com http://sailboatdata.com/viewrecord.asp?class_id=1072

    I want increase the upwind light air performance. Here is my question: How much can I increase the J dimension (with a bowsprit) and the E dimension (with a longer boom and boomkin) before:
    1) It no longer helps me upwind or,
    2) Negatively affects my close hauled performance or
    3) Creates some other performance issue that I have not thought of.

    My plan would be to keep the existing 130 furling head sail and just add something like a Code Zero out on a bowsprit and when the wind freshens, douse it in favor of the inboard Genoa and reef the new, larger main.

    I can deal with the mechanical issues and construction details but who does this type of sail plan design work for used, small boats?
     
  2. CT249
    Joined: May 2003
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    CT249 Senior Member

    Having modified another half tonner of similar age (but very different style) I'd say step number one is to email the British or Swedish Ballad class associations and ask whether anyone else has done it before. Second would be to hunt around the ORC database and look for the dimensions of modified Ballads, which may not only give you rig dimensions but may give you information on how much faster they would make you.

    May I ask why you don't just move to a 150% genoa and a bigger roach on the mainsail?

    The main issue I had was with excess weather helm due to the larger mainsail, which meant that with a bigger rig (in my case, a fractional one) the boat was much faster but slightly hard-mouthed at times. The rudder was a poor design anyway, and the fitting of a new spade rudder made for a much better boat overall.
     
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  3. Heinrich Poigner
    Joined: Jul 2018
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    Location: Austria

    Heinrich Poigner (He likes boats(and maths))

    sounds like it must have been interesting project, do you happen to have any kind of dokumentation of the made changes?
    would be awsome if it were possible to study and compare those (or links to others that have done so)

    @Ted Royer
    if by having Hull deck and mast do you mean it is an empty boat? :
    do you plan on documenting the build?
    else:
    what did you mean by that?

    in theory:
    a lover aspect sail (longer foot for same hight) would always result in less efficiency closehauld (more drag),
    lukiely realyty isn't that simple :p
     
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  4. Ted Royer
    Joined: Jul 2018
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    Location: Houston Texas

    Ted Royer Junior Member

    Wow, thank you for the quick replies. I did a search on the ORC database (thank you for cluing me in on that resource) and saw some sail plans that were modified, but nothing on the order of what I am thinking:

    upload_2018-7-19_7-22-45.png

    To answer the question of why not just go to a larger headsail and main on the existing standing rigging, maybe if this upgrade that I am proposing turns out to be too crazy then that is certainly a fallback position. The boat currently has a roller furling main which I am definitely replacing both the main which is UV damaged, the boom, gooseneck and the standing rigging. I want a three reef main in the end, with the third reef being basically the storm main.

    To further clarify on the 'hull deck and mast' comment, she sails fine, is really stiff, just really ugly and a lot slower in light air on the wind than I want. The hull is done now and the deck leak hunt is over. I am currently installing a new water tank, a 30GPH water maker, 600 Ah of battery bank, new gen set, HVAC, a complete electrical rewire, adding a fixed swim platform, and tabbing in the bolt-in bulkheads (hopefully to increase the overall hull/deck stiffness and strength but mostly so they don't creak so much when I sail). I ripped out the engine and its associated infrastructure to make room/weight allowance for everything else. Even with the new ground tackle it looks like the cruising weight will be only about a 600 Lbs over the original design. All of that work is going a little faster than I was expecting on this size boat (my other refits were even smaller boats) but I have never modified a sail plan.

    I drew it up in CAD and it looks like to me with the dimensions I am proposing that the CE stays in the same place:

    upload_2018-7-19_7-57-21.png

    Obviously this is more complex problem than just CE, I just don't know what the other considerations are. In the picture, left side is as is, right side is as proposed except that in this version I was playing around with further in-boarding the existing fore stay. (No comments necessary on the swim platform, I have already been told it's an abomination).

    Bottom line is that I think I need professional help on the sail plan since (ha, ha,) I would like to only have to do this once. Now that I am old and the kids are all married, I plan to cruise part time in the Caribbean, maybe 30-90 days a year and will just haul the boat out there during the storm season and when I am back in the states working. Way more than you wanted to hear.

    Most Respectfully,
    Ted Royer
     

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  5. Ted Royer
    Joined: Jul 2018
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    Location: Houston Texas

    Ted Royer Junior Member


    Any update on who I could employ to help me with this sail plan design update?
     
  6. Dolfiman
    Joined: Aug 2017
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    Dolfiman Senior Member

    Dear Ted,
    A remark about your new sailplan : ok for light winds but what will happen now for stronger winds with a greater backward main sail + a smaller backward jib, your CE is then significantly backward / the one for the initial sailplan which is supposed to be well balanced at the helm, so you may face an important weather helm to compensate.
    Actually it is a bit more complex as you feel it :
    - From an initial equilibrium with a neutral rudder (i.e. in the axis of the boat, the flow incidence on the rudder being only the one due to the leeway angle) : in case of a gust of wind you will heel more, in the horizontal plan projection the sail force moves slightly aft / the lateral resistance force and so you need a bit more lateral force from the rudder to maintain the equilibrium. Provided either thanks to the extra speed due to the gust (ideal boat) or thanks a rudder angle, usually thanks to both effects. Illustration here attached.
    - Now from the same initial equilibrium at constant wind, if you add more fore sail forward (a genoa on a bow sprit) : your CE moves forward but in the same time, as you heel more due to this extra sail surface, the CE moves backward. So you can have a kind of compensation of the two effects.
    - At the contrary, if you add more sail surface thanks to a mainsail with a greater boom : your CE moves backward both initially and due to the extra heel due to this extra sail surface.
    - So, the increase of both jib and main is not a symmetrical affair, it is better in my opinion to increase more the fore sail than the main one (that suppose of course that you start from a balance situation : if you have currently a "the contrary of weather helm" (I don't no the term in English) problem you can put a bit more mainsail surface as well).

    By hoping this can be helpful,
     

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  7. Ted Royer
    Joined: Jul 2018
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    Ted Royer Junior Member

    It is extremely helpful, thank you. If I am understanding you correctly it also helps explain something else I never quite understood: Why a code zero on a bowsprit does not upset the balance as much as you might guess from the movement of the CE forward.

    The boat is currently well balanced, and yes gathers some weather helm during a strong gust as expected. I am replacing the roller furling main and the boom anyway but I will moderate the increase on the main, and move the CE more forward.

    Keeping in mind that I am hoping to increase my light air performance for light air cruising purposes, I planned to be reefed rather than further heeled over as the air increases. My idea was to have the main sized so that when single reefed, it was still slightly larger (since as a reefed sail I thought it would be less efficient) than the current main and I would set that reef when I furled the sail on the bowsprit, hoping that, with the existing inboard jib flying, and the main with a single reef, I was essentially back to where I am now for more normal air.
     
    Last edited: Aug 8, 2018
  8. Dolfiman
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    Dolfiman Senior Member

    I am in tune with your strategy, which moreover let you the benefit of a slight larger mainsail when sailing downwind for which the balance issue is less critical.
     
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  9. Chuck Losness
    Joined: Apr 2008
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    Location: Central CA

    Chuck Losness Senior Member

    Major design changes on a boat rarely pan out. You are talking about spending a lot of time and money for minuscule performance gains that you may not even be able tell under way. Racers do this because gaining a slight advantage can be the difference between winning and losing. You will never notice it cruising.
    As a general rule light air upwind performance is maximized by having a taller rig. Taller, narrower sails help upwind performance. Spreading your sail plan out like you are thinking about enhances off the wind performance.
    If I was in your shoes this is what I would do. I would have a main with a large roach that just clears the backstay. Three reefs because the Caribbean in the winter months can have strong trade winds. I would have a 130 +- genoa on a roller furler and I would have a storm jib on an inner forestay. I would also have a 105 +- jib as a spare. For off the wind sailing you can free fly the 105 poled out with the 130 to leeward. This makes a pretty effective off the wind sail plan. For lighter off the wind sailing and if the budget allows I would have an ayso with a reacher cut. You could fly this as close as 45 t0 5o apparent in lighter airs. For deeper downwind sailing you could fly to ayso off to leeward with the 130 poled out.
    Lots of sail plan options with these basic sails.
     
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  10. Dolfiman
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    Dolfiman Senior Member

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  11. Chuck Losness
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    Chuck Losness Senior Member

    We are getting into semantics here. In my racing experience a true code zero is a limited use racing sail that sets on its own roller furler and has a limited range of use from around 40 to 50 apparent. I have been out of racing for awhile and things most likely have changed. I would not call the sail you referenced as a code zero. But it is the type of sail that I was referring to.
    One thing that I didn't mention in my prior post was spinnaker poles. On a cruising boat I like to have the spinnaker pole mounted on a track on the mast that allows you to raise the inboard end of the pole so that the outboard end will swing through the fore triangle without having to remove the pole from the mast. The track also needs to be long enough that the pole is stored upright along the mast. The Pardey's in one of their books describes this and that Lynn could gibe the boat without assistance. To further make gibing easy I have a thimble tied to the clew of my genoas and attach the spinnaker pole to this thimble instead of the sheets. No need to switch sheets in a gibe. One less thing to do.

    IMG_1056.JPG IMG_1057.JPG
     
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  12. Ted Royer
    Joined: Jul 2018
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    Location: Houston Texas

    Ted Royer Junior Member

    Thank you but I am probably still going to try. I have the money and the rest of the boat will take me the winter to complete so I also have time. Could you suggest a navel architect who I could employ help me not make bad mistakes?
     
  13. Chuck Losness
    Joined: Apr 2008
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    Chuck Losness Senior Member

    The only NA that I know personally is Alan Andrews in Long Beach, CA. I am sure that Alan can help you out. I have no idea what he charges for his services.
     
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  14. Ted Royer
    Joined: Jul 2018
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    Location: Houston Texas

    Ted Royer Junior Member

    Thanks Chuck. Really appreciate all of the support and input.
     
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