Sail fast & Sail flat

Wide beam, lifting keel should do the job.
What about a smaller version of this http://www.finot-conq.com/content/ourson-rapide

 

Well this should cover it..



Sails though the air, its a monohull, doesn't pound while sailing (Through the air) Very shallow draft and as for 200 mile days? Heck you could get 2,000 mile days outta' this baby!

-jim lee

 

Fully concur, except for the "mono".

I clearly call that a trimaran.

 

Oh lord, your right! How obtuse of me to miss that.

-jim lee

 

Please see the Polar for the 60'. I think the discussion I am looking for is are we as cruisers limiting ourselves with old school thought and not taking into consideration new technology and the advances made...

 

Parati,

Under 50' it is impossible for any boat to reliably claim to average 200miles/day, with the marginal exception of fully crewed hard driven racing boats. Take a look at the last Around alone (or Velux 5 Ocean Race). Over the course two of the Open 60's averaged 189, 190 miles/day. Now in the incredibly fast, incredibly powerful boats with zero compromises made for comfort they were not able to sustain 200mile days. The Open 50 had to withdraw, but it was no where near the pace of the Open 60's BTW.

Now it certainly is possible to design a boat with the expectation that it will achieve 200mile days, and be a reasonable cruising boat, but you need to start somewhere in the 75+ foot range, OR switch over to a catamaran where average speeds are higher for a smaller boat.

If you are serious about geting the fastest boat possible in the ~50' range though I would consider anything recent build to the TP-52 box rule. I sailed on a Santa Cruiz 52 for a while, and while it wasn't the fastest boat I have been on, for the speed it was pretty comfortable. Of course it didn't have anything like a shallow draft.

 

When you do start to record Big days its stressful. If the wind is strong and the opportunity to haul *** exists, many times you slow down to protect the boat. Ultimate ability to genate high speed runs is not a good way to choose a multipurpose boat. I think its best to carefully review the polar diagrams..speed predictions, of a type yacht you like and select the yacht which achieves the best speed in the conditions you most often expect to encounter. For me this would indicate light reaching conditions. The boat that is quick in 10 knots of wind will always reach destination first. This would mean a powerful sailplan on a lightweight hull. The lightweight, wide beam, multiple underwater appendages approach is most logical. I think that if you look at the pogo 40 cruising model...reduced draft, reduced sailarea ....you will see a very good multipupose concept. This is why I say charter one of the Cruising Pogo's to see for yourself. To see whether interior volume , standing headroom....on such a design is suitable. Only when you see its benift and defects can you refine your specifications and give a yacht designer instructions on the type of boat to design. You could go the multihull route but for me multihulls have many weak points when sailing and are expensive and difficult to handle.

 

By the way..that Finot 60...nice boat. Expensive. Also as presented in the photo spread the yacht strikes me as being a little to Boat Showy to be practical. To much space that may never be used as designed. Think really hard about how you will actually use the boat. Refine every detail to reflect form and function.

You mention 200 mile days. Well, to move fast ,a yacht needs a sail inventory. Not just the sails hung on the roller and boom. Details like Asymmetric spinakers , Code sails, heavy weather sails. These are the weapons that allow you show your heels to the rest of the fleet and stand out as a quick boat. . You must have some place to store them and a very simple way to deploy them. Interior space will be needed.
When you are actually out there sailing around, you will soon realize that frivolous interior detailing is...frivolous. Simplicity rules. In the end , to be snug as a bug in a rug, you only NEED a a superior all weather bunk , a superior all weather bathroom, shower, head arrangement and a superior all weather gallery.. thats it. If you compromise any of these details by adding frivolous details, the whole concept suffers. Simplicity....and function are the hallmarks of a great yacht.
That Finot has no natural sun shade cockpit protection ? Ive already got glass eyes from intense UV burn...as drawn that yacht would be difficult to live with. Protection from the elements...the sun, is critical. Also remeber that when pushing hard, water is flying , so the boat is closed up....interior all weather natural ventilation is very high on the list of ways to use space.

 

Parati from Costa Rica, Go do some chartering, try both big mono's and big cats like the Gun series from South Africa... I could think of lots of things to do with my money than have a magnificent "Show-boat-gin-palace" that HAS to be kept in a marina to ensure decorative maintenance, let alone ship-shape necessities...

Start your quest with "Where will I cruise?" - Do I seek overnight in a marina berth with all services to plug in as needed
or will it be independent global cruising?
if the latter, 80% of your time will be at anchor, and ashore enjoying the local culture..

Mine will be launched soon, a 40ft catamaran motor-sailer... Similar appearance to a Lagoon40, but less than half the weight and LOTS more shade and shelter... as permanent cover extends all the way aft including the "duckboard" part outside the saloon... Steering is near midships forward... Single handing on passages under sail or power... 6knots on a single engine at better than 1 mile for 2 litres... Will find out what she does when both are fired up after launch...

 

Yup, those cats like Gunship are nice boats, fast, seaworthy, heaps of space for their length, great tender handling ability, good natural ventilation, good looking..but they are cats. Monohull or cat the battle rages on !!!

I see a very nice custom cat at the shipyard now. Bottom and rudders are torn off,, heavily damaged, big time repairs. The damage was caused by grounding. Many ports have no space available to accommodate a cats beam. This cat was anchored outside the harbour for exactly that reason..no space...intense thunderstorm blew in while her owner was ashore shopping...anchor dragged and well...disaster. Very common scenario with cats. they are difficult to handle in ports. Masalia...by all means carry a gigantic anchor on your cat...gigantic...to protect your baby.

For all purpose monhulls, check out the very talented designer Chuck Paine.

Fast, seaworthy, intellegent, usable boats

 

My current Outbound 46 is an excellent example of the type of live aboard comfortable monohull.
I think the discussion is too focused on the 200 and not on fast, flat, and comfortable.
Of course I can manage my sailplan to keep the OB46 sailing flat and it is faster than being on her ear.
I am wondering how a larger boat at around 50-54 along the lines of the Finot 60, Shipman 63 with their flatter bottoms, wide beams light displacement handle at sea offshore? If I look at the photos of these guys in the pure racing machines sailing solo they tend to look like low heel angle in many conditions. The big speeds come from reaching which is the preferred route. I did Turks & Caicos to Panama with 1 jibe and many friends have gone from Galapagos west with not touching the sails wing on wing for a week.
So are the new modern designs like above which probably includes the Pogo design as well comfortable and do they have low heeling angles?

 

Well. they have a "lower" heel angle because of the hull shape , their displacement is low and this requires less sail area.. less power to move it..easily driven. Ill notice this relationship everytime I sail on a gran prix racer...easily driven, lower heel angle. The beauty of these boats is they are easily driven. The yacht you picture is a classic..good compromise , seaworthy boat of moderate displacement.. Requires a bit of grunt to keep her moving. Not a bad way to go. This is why they are the top choice for most sailors. One day catch a ride on an ocean speedster...very impressive.

 

Well, it was you who brought up the 200 miles as a requirement. And as mentioned before, that is a pipe dream on any boat below 70ft+, and even on that size not the average 24hr distance! 40 to 50ft boats, suitable for cruising and equipped accordingly, never do that in their entire life.
Cats, btw, are not that much faster on long voyages! You can get proof of that in every other mooring on the barefoot route.

Daiquiri already told you, you have to give up one or the other point of your SOR. Wide, shallow, fast and stiff, don´t go together in a cruiser.

Regards
Richard

 

Parati,

I spent a good bit of time crewing on a Santa Cruize 52 built to the TP-52 box rule. They are very fast for the size, have a reasonable cabin, but all of the boats you mentioned also have deep draft, typically with a large bulb at the bottom of the keel. Since you requested shallow draft as well these just don't meet that requirement.

The problem as I see it is that you have a number of design specs that run directly counter to each other. And without really understanding how you feel about where to compromise it is difficult to make suggestions. For instance your SPR to me list out like this:

monohull
cruising will be the primary purpose of the boat
under 50'
shorthanded sailing will be typical
does not pound
sails fast (200+ avg days)
sails flat (less than 15% heel)
Shallow Draft
Some hotel loading
Sun protection

1)To make a monohull fast you have to put lots of power in the rig. This of course requires you to sacrifice either draft or sailing flat, it also makes it more difficult to shorthand. You also need a wide canoe body to accelerate plaining, which sacrifices pounding as well as shorthanded sailing (since it tires the crew out faster); though it does help to keep the boat flatter to some degree.

2) Most cruising requires large amounts of on-board storage and the ability to carry significant weight. This however is hard to achieve in a ultra light displacement boat, since every added pound makes up a much large percentage of the sail away weight. It also means the boat is prone to being out of balance since stores can be used unevenly.

3) Your desire for hotel loading could be taken a number of different ways that depends on what you mean. 24/7 AC is a very different issue than once a week watching a movie. These days even long distance racers cary generators so no great issue here, but it does need to be defined more.

As for the other questions you asked:

1) Material would almost certainly have to be carbon fiber with foam core. If possible the keel would be made from a boron alloy that is denser than lead though this would disqualify the boat from most racing.

2) It would probably look something like a stretched Melgus 32. Very flat in the transom, little free board, knife like bow, and powerful rig design.

3) Angle of heel on these boats is critically important. You must get them flat, no matter what else it takes. Particularly in anything like a reach, otherwise the hull cannot generate the lift necessary to plane. The problem for cruising is that getting them flat means flogging the main if neccesary, switching down to smaller head sails, hiking, water ballast, and canting keels. None of which are really reasonable for cruising short handed.

Just out of curiosity why the focus on keeping the boat ~50 foot? The price difference on most of this type of boat has nothing to do with length, but with amount of finish below deck. For instance a TP-52 is about 5 times the cost of an Andrews turbo sled in the 70' range.

 

Stumble,
I understand all of your points and point you to the comments regarding the Finot 60 as well as the Shipman 63. Lifting keel deals with the draft issue, they both have pretty stellar polars, look quite comfortable as to the living conditions with more space than I want or need.
Do these boats pound? It seems to me that the solo racer pushing the envelope needs to have as much comfort in the seas as possible both for the health of the boat and themselves. Has anyone delivered a vessel like these mentioned? How was the actual ride?
So logic is if these modern designs are strong and comfortable can we get a Shipman 53? Or a Finot 50?
It would not be hard to design a Carbon Bimini to provide the sunprotection needed as well as a location for solar panels(which can be utlraslim & light).
I think the 200 avg is construed to mean every day all the time which I do not intend to imply, more like can the vessel achieve 200 avg when the conditions are right and if you look at the Ourson 60 polar on a reach you theoretically could hit 336 miles in 20kn at 140deg in 24hrs. Throttled back 200 is very realistic in the same conditions taking it easy.