Sail fast & Sail flat

Discussion in 'Boat Design' started by Parati, Nov 11, 2010.

  1. Parati
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    Parati Junior Member

    Is it possible to build a monohull cruising sailboat under 50' for shorthanded crew that does not pound, sails fast (200+ avg days), and sails flat (less than 15% heel)?
    If so what would it look like and what material would it need to be built with?
    You would want her to be able to cruise into shallow areas to find protection, carry the necessary "Home" needs of the Rear Admiral and have the needed sun protection.
    All thoughts and inputs are appreciated...
     
    Last edited: Nov 12, 2010
  2. Petros
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    Petros Senior Member

    That one is easy: a cursing catamaran. Light, fast, flat sailor, shallow draft, and with loads of room for a bridge cabin plus the hulls.

    Can be made with strip built or stitch and glue fiberglass, steel, or foam and fiberglass.

    you likely could not get acceptable performance in all areas you listed with a monohull, you would have to compromise some of your requirements.
     
  3. Stumble
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    Stumble Senior Member

    The only requirement that might be a stretch is the 200 mile a day average. If well sailed in good winds a cat could achieve these numbers, but it isn't likely to be a consistant average (though a monohull would be lower). Overall a large cruising cat seems to fit your SOR's.
     
  4. Parati
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    Parati Junior Member

    I have updated the thread to specify monohull.
     
  5. Milan
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    Milan Senior Member

    Cruising sail boat of that size can not average 200 miles/day. Certainly not if you expect relaxed, comfortable movements on top of that.

    I think you should sail a lot more on the different kinds of the boats. After that, your expectations and priorities will most probably change considerably.
     
  6. Parati
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    Parati Junior Member

    The class 40 is easily doing that solo. The question is how is that ride? Can you get enough accommodation into a 50, keep it light enough and not get beat up? The Shipman 63 is an example of a luxury version, the JP54 is interesting in concept.
     
  7. waikikin
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    waikikin Senior Member

    Hi Parati, something like Alby Burgins "Alstar" could fit, from Radford Yacht design, those numbers are acheivable off the wind & upwind if your prepared to motorsail at times easy to do, maybe some water ballast could help too, All the best with it from Jeff. http://www.radford-yacht.com/past/past.html
     
  8. michael pierzga
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    michael pierzga Senior Member

    Well, first look at the modern oceanic monohulls...particularly the French model... the offshore 50 and 60s . you will see 200 mile per day boats. These boat are very high powered and easily driven. They achieve the 200 mile days without pushing the boat hard.....reduced sail area. The boats are light weight and High powered so that they may achieve fast passages even in light winds. Do these boats heel ? Of coarse they do, but to achieve fast passage requires reduced manpower fatigue. They heel " less" that a conventional mono hull. Do they pound ? Of coarse they pound...big flat sections. But when operated with skill and operated in reaching conditions they deliver a very good compromise. Study these yachts...or...charter one , then you will know. I see several Pogo 40 available for charter. Im not talking about the grans prix Pogos, Im talking about the cruising Pogo for charter. These are very fast, very tough, conventionally constructed, seaworthy...French Model production yachts.

    http://pogostructures.com/?m=4&s=6&l=en
     
  9. daiquiri
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    daiquiri Engineering and Design

    The "does not pound" and "shallow draft" requirements are in conflict with each other. Shallow draft means flat wide sections, and they do pound a lot.
    I think you will have to pick one of the two and drop the other one. ;)
     
  10. dskira

    dskira Previous Member

    Built the Spray

    Daniel
     
  11. Stumble
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    Stumble Senior Member

    Michael,

    No matter what the designer says, and as much as I like the Pogo deign, it is not a cruising boat. The Pogo is a long distance racer in line with those boats built to do the Trans-Pac and while it has great speed, and for a racer is very comfortable it misses out on a lot of things necessary for comfortable cruising.

    Even given the Pogo's pedegree however it barely made 200 miles a day while sailing through a 48 hour gale. Averaging just over 10kn for 46 hours. So yes it did do 460miles in two days, but it took 45kn of average breeze to do so. A far cry from being able to reliably expect to average at least 8.34kn which is what is required for a 200mile day. The only boats capable of maintaining this type of speed over long distances outside of gales are catamanrans, and even then only relativly fast ones.


    Parati,

    much as I like your thinking process the reality is that by the time you load down a boat with cruising gear, eht amount of weight you need to carry is not bearable by a <50' monohull at these high speeds. And the monohulls that can average this type of speed are all very deep draft racing boats that do not have the crew acomodations you sound like you want. Something has to give in your SOR's. Either accept a cat, lower average speeds, very minimal accomodations with a deep draft, or buy two boats and put the wife in one and the racing crew on the other (this was my solution for many years).
     
  12. Crag Cay
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    Crag Cay Senior Member

  13. michael pierzga
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    michael pierzga Senior Member

    Well, not many 40 to 50 ft monhulls achieve 200 miles per day. . The only way to achieve that kind of mileage is with a lightweight Pogo like design sailing on a reach, not hard to windward, with favorable weather conditions from the wind gods. . .
    Perhaps you should reduce your expectations a bit and solicit copies of the Polar diagrams from well respected yacht designs of your preference. Im sailing a yacht that will do 200 mile reaching days, thru a wide variety of wind angles, wind stength, without to much fuss..its big , powerful ,complex, hits nine knots effortlesly with cracked sheets and costs many millions. Upwind speed, fully wound up, wet sanded bottom, crisp sails, good helmsman, moderate seaway. low thirties apparent wind angle is ...seven point nine knots... Nice for the wife and kids...but It wont make your 200 mile day spec. Better go 100 ft and deepen your pockets.
     

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  14. michael pierzga
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    michael pierzga Senior Member

    And Craig...you hit the nail on the head. 200 mile days under sail are very hard to achieve. On some trips, like the Classic Med to Caribbean trade wind crossing you can expect quite a few 200 miler's, but on a mixed North Atlantic seasonal crossing..NO WAY. Even if you could you would be working the yacht so hard..non stop..that you would rapily tire and give up sailing altogether.
    Only if you have a big MTU diesel and plenty of fuel to push thru the wind holes and transition zones. When Im pushed by time considerations I get the 200 mile number with engine hours.
     

  15. apex1

    apex1 Guest

    Concur,

    just a few days ago we had this 200miles discussion again here. DonĀ“t remember where I left the study about the real world data (do you?), but I remember that the size of boats achieving these numbers start with some 70ft +

    Michael,

    it is always nice to see, how fast you can change your "experts" opinion, once guided to the proper sources!


    Parati,

    your requirements are not in line with each other, as Daiquiri and others stated.
    Sailing upright would mean either, wide beam, or substantial draught, or a compromise between. Both not adding to speed in average and enjoyable conditions. So, back to the SOR. (Statement of Requirements)

    Regards
    Richard
     
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