Running an Air Conditioner From The Sun - The Holy Grail

Discussion in 'Boat Design' started by CatBuilder, Mar 6, 2012.

  1. mydauphin
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    mydauphin Senior Member

    Looks like the perfect system for a bored mechanical engineer to run...
     
  2. eightyape
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    eightyape Junior Member

    http://www.climatewell.com/Document...ption_ClimateWell_SolarChiller_v9_33_1_EN.pdf

    whats wrong? this one is only about a ton...lol.
    get your point but with lightweight heat collectors(black pvc pipe on aluminium sheeting and a slimmed down design of the charging unit it might just be possible? get the hybrid /pv panels to feed the chiller and even and forego the dutty smokey engines completely!- thus saving some weight ...

    you wouldnt SAVE weight in total but with lightweight piping...lightweight panels specific weight reduction of materials /redesign in the chiller box then just maybe..
    i emailed climatewell who are the market leader in such things and issued them a challenge in any case...
     
  3. mydauphin
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    mydauphin Senior Member

    The Hondas are air cooled, they would not work to good inside the boat, to say nothing of the fumes. Everyone I have ever seen are tied to the mast, bow or stern. Bow is great for noise, but you get fumes in open hatches, and stern is great for fumes, but you get a little noise. Note there are two models of Honda generator about 2000watt, there is quiet one and a noiser one. Make sure you get the quiet one. The Honda work well because they are DC generator that drive inverter. Thus they can regulate output electronically rather than by rpms only.
     
  4. eightyape
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    eightyape Junior Member

    sidedrfiting the thread? its called "holy grail solar air conditioning" ffs.
    not "how big a genny do i need?"
    Catbuilder has posed a fantastic question and the market for a product that runs on the absorption principle is huge -brings massive efficiencies, can be combined to produce more efficient panels for electricity generation and if anyone running a 60ft yacht would be well pleased with one of those climatewell systems.

    Theres loads of threads discussing internal combustion generators like this already and this is the "boat design" forum right?

    anyway it his thread -i propose you go and hang out with the other dinosaurs and go bang some rocks together and spam your hondas somewhere else.yes they work, yes they are probably his best realworld solution and that was established pages ago.
     
  5. daiquiri
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    daiquiri Engineering and Design

    I might, when you demonstrate that the system you propose is a sound and viable solution for CatBuilder's boat.
     
  6. eightyape
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    eightyape Junior Member

    It might not be -im not proposing for his boat necessarily either- im thinking of designing a system along the remit laid out in the title... the tech does not exist yet that can do it but the principles seem sound- just dismissing it because it doesnt fit catbuilders specific remit is daft. ill start a new thread if i must hmmm what should i call it?
    "holy grail solar air conditioning unit that isnt powered by honda generators and is actually a solar air conditioning unit"
    bit of a mouthful really.
    You seem to have played with this idea before?you any inspiration as to how to reduce the weight of one of these beasties?
    that would be the next step in "designing" a useable system that wont sink you!
    To further "sideline" or as i like to call it an "idea" what about a pipe on the anchor and a solar powered pump that pulls up cold water and circulates it. wouldnt work under sail obviously but it would be very easy to do.
     
  7. hoytedow
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    hoytedow Carbon Based Life Form

    No need. You can go to http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/bo...unit-isnt-powered-honda-generators-42250.html to squabble and offer alternate systems not fitting OP quest.
     
  8. eightyape
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    eightyape Junior Member

    it would be interesting to see what catbuilder might think instead of wading in with his assumed opinions.
    He is after a "holy grail"- rather an improbable and if not impossible request that might take some creativity and and i sure didnt start the squabble and have no want to continue it.
    Seeing as the most creative alternatives that have been posited to his solar system proposal is "get a honda" other than exploring what might be done in the field of solar powered application for the brief- then the quest has been fulfilled already if you are right.
    You put up with shameless spam for washing machines but gripe in my direction for trying to progress a very interesting concept???
    mental.
    "I might, when you demonstrate that the system you propose is a sound and viable solution for CatBuilder's boat."
    what is your experience of design study ? is it a magical thing? that happens without discussion? a light bulb simply appears above ones head? fairies deliver complete plans to manufacturers and stuff just turns up on shelves ready for you to buy?
    there are posts on here that go on for 60 pages sounding out the shape of a single keel feature-
    its basically cos im a newbie here isnt it?
    im prepared to sound out an idea or two on a subject and for some reason that irks???
    Lol -Is sniping and snide childish behaviour a common feature on this forum, you actually created the thread???
    what are you? a 12 year old?
    As for the deep pipe idea -If you only had to run the electric aircon when underway wouldnt that give you a rather large boost in efficiency provided you weren't always on the move?
     
  9. daiquiri
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    daiquiri Engineering and Design

    I think you are over-reacting, because all I meant to say is (translation): it's ok to have a fancy idea about anything, but since this thread is about a practical application on a real boat, it would be much more productive to verify if the idea is viable and if it can be of any use for the thread starter. I have also tried to analyse the deep-hose idea, in the other thread (http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/bo...unit-isnt-powered-honda-generators-42250.html), hope you won't get angry once again when you see that first results are not encouraging at all...

    As for my experience, a good part of my income comes from designing electric and AC systems for civil and industrial uses (can't live from just designing boats in these harsh times, unfortunately), so I do know something about their practical use and limits.

    I am sorry that you have taken my comment so personally, it wasn't intended to be personal at all. Actually, knowing how CatBuilder used to react to these sort of discussions and side-drifts, it's a miracle and a fortune he didn't jump in to shoot few big words as well... :)

    Cheers
     
  10. CatBuilder

    CatBuilder Previous Member

    My poor thread! ha ha ha :)

    Easy guys. I appreciate all the input and passion going into trying to solve the problems here.

    Daiquiri is right. I do try to keep focuseds thread like this one right on track. It's a byproduct of being in the middle of building a 45' catamaran. There is very little free time to wade through a serious thread drift that doesn't apply to the initial topic, if it's such a specific one about my own boat. Other threads, I'm probably guilty of plenty of thread drift! ha ha ha But on ones that are extremely focused (like "what is the drag of a saildrive"), sometimes you have to steer it a little to make sure the question at hand is solved. Hope nobody has taken offense to that in the past.

    I have gone over this several times away from the computer and I can't (at the current watts/sqft or lb of solar) find a solution that is better than a tiny 10-14hp or so engine running huge DC alternators.

    Nothing weighs less (been through the adsorption chiller route - VERY heavy and 10 tons is the smallest one).

    Nothing costs less (other than going without).

    Nothing is more efficient, except solar.

    I did spend some time looking to see if I could run a small, marinized gasoline engine instead of a small diesel one, but did not find any. My reasoning here is that I have large gasoline/pertrol tanks aboard for the outboard propulsion system. I have very bad luck with storing gasoline and spend half my time working on carburetors. I figured I could use the gasoline up more quickly if I also burned it for power generation. Has anyone seen a marinized, 10-14HP gasoline engine available?

    Failing the gasoline engine, I am looking at a similar power diesel engine and doing the same thing.

    The problem appears to be solved, though I would very much like to see a solar powered air conditioner on a boat some day.

    When discussing this with my wife, she said we can always keep looking at solar until the watts/sqft goes up enough to make it work... who knows... maybe in 10 years it will be inexpensive.

    Not surprisingly, Daiquiri nailed (or killed it?) it with his analysis of the incident solar radiation and angle of the panels. Accounting for that, it went from "barely possible" to "not possible without spending too much and/or building more roof."

    For now, it will be:

    *10-14HP engine (150lbs?)
    *Huge alternators, matched to run all air conditioners at once - 5kw or so
    *Small, individual air conditioners for each zone, despite lowered efficiency
    *Massive 5kw+ inverter
    *100lbs 5kwh LiFePO4 battery bank (1/3 the size of the original solar bank)

    Engine runs at full output any time it is in use - either running the ACs with no drain on the battery bank, or as a 5kw battery charger, able to charge the bank in one hour, charging at 1xC.

    If someone hits a hair dryer while the air conditioners are running, the battery bank takes up the slack.

    I'm not sure there is anything more efficient or easier to use (other than solar).

    Thanks for the input, everyone. I think we have a winner here!
     
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  11. eightyape
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    eightyape Junior Member

    "Nothing weighs less (been through the adsorption chiller route - VERY heavy and 10 tons is the smallest one). "
    Did you see the link to the climawell one -only 950kg- thats without the vacuum tube system though...
     
  12. CatBuilder

    CatBuilder Previous Member

    Ah, difference of the use of English here.

    10 tons, in the States, refers not to the weight of an air conditioner, but to the power. 1 ton = 12,000 BTU.

    But, even at 950kg, you are talking about a machine that weighs 1/5 the entire weight of my 45' x 25' boat!
     
  13. mydauphin
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    mydauphin Senior Member

    LOL, a 10 ton ac will sink just about any boat.... Go back to the pub guys...
     
  14. FAST FRED
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    FAST FRED Senior Member

    Everyone (Honda) I have ever seen are tied to the mast, bow or stern.

    Some charter folks simply install the noisemaker in a 13 or 17 ft Whaler and tow it astern.

    For massive loads Air cond or Scuba refilling it quiets the moise.

    FF
     

  15. CatBuilder

    CatBuilder Previous Member

    NEW QUESTION -

    What is the most energy efficient and smallest BTU, self contained marine air conditioner available?

    If I don't see many responses, I may have to start a new thread for those that didn't want to wade into solar air conditioning. :)
     
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