Rudder on outrigger

Discussion in 'Boat Design' started by clmanges, Jan 2, 2020.

  1. FishinCary
    Joined: Dec 2019
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    FishinCary Junior Member

    Yeah you’re totally right about the COG argument as well. So why then do you think you should make a V hull.... If doing so would worsen both the stability (by raising the COG) and the turning maneuverability (with or without a rudder)?

    The addition of an outrigger is an attempt to gain some stability at the expense of maneuverability. Why insist on a design (deep V rather than a traditional sea kayak) that worsens both stability and maneuverability (as far as you and I can intuit) just to add yet another thing (outrigger) to compensate for that poor choice of hull design?

    Best of luck. If you go the route of buying a boat and want something that tracks better in tough conditions, I’d recommend looking into a sit inside sea kayak.
     
  2. clmanges
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    clmanges Senior Member

    I suppose a lot of it was the appeal of long-and-skinny=faster. And quick maneuverability doesn't concern me much on lakes, especially since I think in advance of where I want to go and what might be there. That design would--I think--also give me the ability to turn myself around in the boat enough to look behind me, which I can't do safely now.

    I've been looking, but only at SOTs. I have no interest in learning to roll or do wet reentries, whereas I already know how to self-rescue with a SOT and it's quick and easy.

    My choices have basically narrowed down to two; this:

    Kayak: Caribbean 14 - Eddyline Kayaks and Paddles https://eddyline.com/kayak-model/caribbean-14

    and this:

    Skimmer 140 – Hurricane Kayaks – Lightweight Kayaks for Fishing and Recreation https://hurricaneaquasports.com/our-kayaks/sit-on-tops/skimmer-140/

    I like the looks of them both, and the low weight. Nobody makes a rec SOT in 16' anymore or I'd have headed straight for it and figured out a way to support it in my truck bed.

    Feel free to offer opinions on those as Lake Erie boats. I was leery of the Skimmer for that because its bottom is so flat, but then if you disregard the skeg/keel, it seems to have more rocker. More than one reviewer has characterized it as 'playful' in rough water.

    For what it's worth, I also looked at this:

    SCAPA FIT https://www.bicsport.com/kayak/kayaks/scapa.html

    You'll notice it says "sea kayak" twice, and "difficult sea conditions". Yet, when I wrote to them asking about its suitability for Lake Erie, they said, "The Scapa has quite low rocker so isn’t designed as a ‘sea kayak’ for wave conditions." So I've kind of written it off my list, kind of because they admit they were BSing. And because it's hideous.

    Finally, I'd be straining my budget a bit with any of these; mostly with the Caribbean.

    So.
     
  3. Squidly-Diddly
    Joined: Sep 2007
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    Squidly-Diddly Senior Member

    I used to have one of these. Ocean Kayak Sprinter - 17 Ft Sit-On-Top Sea Kayak - Paddle And Backrest Included for sale from United States https://used-kayaks.com/ocean-kayak/ocean-kayak-sprinter-17-ft-sit-top-sea-kayak-paddle-and-backrest-included-63550 Loved it and "had issues" with lack of stability if not paddling fast. I like to paddle but also like to be able to stop and crack a beer or two or three. Ended up selling to a middle-aged woman who had no problem putting it on her roof racks.

    Putting a boat up on racks is less about strength and more about finding the right sequence/devices(rollers?). A longer boat will be easier to get one end up on the rack, then the other end so you never lift more than 1/2 the boat's weight. Don't expect speed/glide improvements without hull length. Open Water (big lake) favors long hull and generally bigger boat. My advice: look on Craigslist for cheap set of lumber racks that fit your truck, then figure out your fave way to get a long kayak up on it. That might be a pole that slides out to allow getting one end up first. This should make your boating much easier, since you can just leave the boat up on the racks (I'm guessing you take the current kayak out of the bed once home from boating and don't normally cruise around with 1/2 kayak hanging out the back).
    During summer I'd just leave an old SOT on the roof racks all the time. Provided nice shade to cut glare and keep car cooler.

    I'd recommend an Ocean Kayak 15' Trident or (faster but wetter) Wilderness Tarpon 16' for big somewhat choppy lake.
     
  4. clmanges
    Joined: Jul 2008
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    clmanges Senior Member

    That's definitely speedy, but about the second or third time I fell out of it I'd be taking it back home to try and mount an outrigger on it. No telling if any of those even exist anymore.

    That would be no improvement on the way I do it now: back up to the ramp, drag the front of the boat onto the tailgate, walk back and shove the rest in. I can strap it in while standing on the ground. Hang the flag on the end and I'm off.

    Yes, and either of those I mentioned above would give me an extra foot and a half length and a few inches less width. That, combined with the sleeker hull shapes (as opposed to the Tribe's tri-hull) should make a noticeable difference.

    snip
    I haven't considered buying used yet, but I might, though only locally. I wouldn't get a Tarpon, though; I already knocked the 140 off my list because it weighs 68 pounds. They no longer make the 160, but it would be even more. I'm an old man; I don't want to work any harder than I have to. ;-)
     
  5. garydierking
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    garydierking Senior Member

  6. clmanges
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    clmanges Senior Member

    Interesting; I wouldn't have thought of that. Does it get close to the line where thrust opposes drag somewhere between the centerlines of the two hulls? I'd think that would be exactly where you'd want it.

    Thanks also for the references, but can you point me to anything about paddle-only outriggers (solo)? I've searched and searched and found next to nothing.
     
  7. garydierking
    Joined: Sep 2004
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    garydierking Senior Member

    All the paddle only outriggers, (OC1) that use a rudder have it inboard aft of the paddler. It would look similar to a surfboard skeg. I can send you a drawing if you contact me privately. gary.dierking (at) gmail.com
     
  8. clmanges
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    clmanges Senior Member

    Thanks, but no need; I've seen lots of those on websites about OCs and surfskis.

    What's really frustrated me is coming up empty on anything like a design process for these boats. Say I start with a hull, I can calculate its displacement, draft, and so on, but how would I then determine the proper specs for the ama, and how long should the akas be? All I know about that is that the akas should be placed fore and aft enough to stay out of my paddle's reach. Should they also be long enough to allow sweep strokes? Are there overall proportions that apply? How much rocker should the ama have, and why? I see a lot of them curved like bananas, but on the old traditional boats a lot of them just look like skinny logs. What factors determine these things?

    Point me to a resource; I'd be very grateful.
     
  9. garydierking
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    garydierking Senior Member

    The ama can be very small for a paddle only canoe with the banana shape being best for paddling. Bigger longer straighter amas are only needed for sailing. I did convert a kayak for a customer where I used a single crossbeam aft of the seat with a small ama on each side. I don't know of any books on this design process, mine is mainly for sailing where the volume of the ama relates to sail area.
     

  10. clmanges
    Joined: Jul 2008
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    clmanges Senior Member

    So, it's just a kiss-the-water-when-the-boat-leans-a-few-degrees? I suppose that makers sense, but without some accessible knowledge base to work with, it's either experiment ($$$) until you get it right, or buy one ($$$) from the, what, three or four manufacturers who make them? Either approach is out of my price range.

    Funny; the conversion you mentioned reminds me of a 7 1/2 foot plastic rowboat I had and sold to another guy. He got a little off-center on the seat, slid sideways, and rolled it, and I was right next to him when it happened. Subsequently he bought this awful-looking rig with a pair of foam floats on either side. Our friendship ended before I got the chance to find out if he ever used it again, but I kinda hope not; he'd have rolled it again because I'm certain he could never absorb enough Newtonian physics to understand the consequences of his 200-pound self sliding across the seat of a 50-pound boat, pontoons or not.

    In any case, this is where I stop with outriggers, but thanks to everyone for their input on this thread.
     
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