Rudder on outrigger

Discussion in 'Boat Design' started by clmanges, Jan 2, 2020.

  1. clmanges
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    clmanges Senior Member

    They say there are no stupid questions ...

    So, I've been thinking on and off about an outrigger kayak, strictly paddle propelled.
    And I've read that these tend to be hard to maneuver. And then I thought, why not put a rudder on the ama? And for no reason I can name, I thought of putting it at the lengthwise center of the ama, but I suppose it would do more good all the way back ... if it did any good at all, but that's what I'm here to find out.
     
  2. kapnD
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    kapnD Senior Member

    Kayaks, and their method of propulsion with a double ended paddle ,do not really need steering rudders or outriggers.
    The paddle is the outrigger as well as the rudder.
     
  3. clmanges
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    clmanges Senior Member

    Well, what I had in mind was a deep-V hull which would not be stable without an outrigger--like maybe 90 degrees, and very narrow, like 18 inches. I'm on my second plastic SOT yak now; thinking of something quite a bit different. Sorry, I should have clarified that in the first post. Also, I'm limited to 14 feet length, give or take a few inches, to fit in my truck bed.
     
  4. kapnD
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    kapnD Senior Member

    Why do you want to have a deep vee hull?
    It’s likely to be slow as well as unstable.
    I can see some vee in the bow, but not clear through.
     
  5. clmanges
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    clmanges Senior Member

    Mmm, maybe because I don't really know a lot about hull design? I'm thinking this might work well for playing in the chop on Lake Erie, and it would have pretty deep draft and high sides for a yak. The instability is why it needs the outrigger, of course--unless you're thinking of some kind of instability other than roll.

    Anyway, my question wasn't about hull shape, but about putting a rudder on an ama. To the extent those two are separable, I'd like to talk about that.
     
  6. messabout
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    messabout Senior Member

    A rudder on an Ama would turn the boat well enough in one direction but not in the other. Think of an ama on the starboard (right side) of the main hull. A rudder on that ama would probably turn the boat well enough to the left. It would not be nearly as effective when trying to turn right. A rudder on a kayak is a convenience but . It is useful for paddling in a cross wind or a cross current. It can also be useful when gliding while not paddling at that moment. Otherwise it is not a necessity.

    A deep vee on a kayak is ill advised. Shallow vee is acceptable but not necessarily the ultimate best of bottom design for a kayak. If you are an experienced sea kayaker you can live with an 18 inch beam. If you are not an experienced expert, then more beam is the order of the day unless you are hooked on high adventure in Lake Erie.

    Kayaks are not fun to paddle if they have high sides. Most kayaks are about 13 to 14 inches from max rocker location to sheer line. The bow is normally elevated some distance above that mid boat height.

    I urge you to buy a set of plans for a proven design and go from there. There are several established suppliers of both plans and Kits.
     
  7. Waterwitch
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    Waterwitch Senior Member

    clmanges likes this.
  8. kapnD
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    kapnD Senior Member

    The more traditional Hawaiian outriggers are rudderless, and are directionally controlled by the paddler, both with the paddle and with weighting/unweighting of the outrigger to produce more or less drag on that side.
    Canoe rudders are controlled by thin cables, entirely adaptable to mounting almost anywhere, but highly favored on the stern of the hull.
    Maybe one of the more qualified design gurus on here will explain more technically than I can why slow speed hulls don’t have deep vee configuration.
     
  9. Squidly-Diddly
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    Squidly-Diddly Senior Member

    What are you trying for, boat wise? More speed?

    Have you considered roof racks for the truck?
     
  10. clmanges
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    clmanges Senior Member

    Thank you; you've answered my original question.

    Nearly impossible without an outrigger, I'm sure, which is why this boat would have one. And you're thinking of traditional kayak designs, which this isn't. Maybe closer to a Pacific islander canoe. Seat height would put me in kitchen-chair posture, maybe four or five inches below sheer.

    And after further thought about my reason for this hull shape, I got to it intuitively, but it would (I think) alleviate hull pounding when dropping down off the top of a wave. Please correct me if I'm wrong. And I know it needs rocker.

    I do suspect that for the boat to behave as I'd like, it would need to be an awful lot longer.

    This is all speculation at this point, so I don't want to spend anything yet. I suppose a trip to the library might be in order. But I will say that I've spent a great many hours searching the web--this site included--for any information on the design of strictly paddle-powered outrigger boats, and found next to nothing.
     
  11. clmanges
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    clmanges Senior Member

    A little more speed, or better glide (the same thing, more or less). My current boat is a Perception Tribe 11.5. It handled the chop on Lake Erie well enough, but it's just sluggish.

    And, no, no roof rack; it's enough for me already to get one end of my boat onto the tailgate and shove the rest of it on.
     
  12. FishinCary
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    FishinCary Junior Member

    My experience with a 13’ sit on top (hobie Revo 13) with one or two outriggers (hobie sidekicks).

    One outrigger, just lean so it’s out of the water and you’ll turn faster. If you need to turn faster.

    Two outriggers, turning radius at low speed is actually significantly smaller than without the outriggers. At high speeds the rudder becomes less responsive and turning radius becomes larger than without the outriggers.

    Since you are putting the outrigger on there for stability, I’m assuming you’re putting 1 not 2. Just enough to keep it stable. Not to make it more difficult to turn at the expensive of turning it into effectively a pontoon boat, right?

    So don’t put a rudder on it, have your outrigger, and learn how to lean to the opposite side to get the outrigger out of the water if you really need to turn on a dime.
     
  13. FishinCary
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    FishinCary Junior Member

    Also as someone who knows zilch about hull design, but has seen enough kayaks to know what tracks straight. A V shape in the front and rear, with a flatter middle section, seems to be the ideal balance between enough tracking for speed and enough maneuverability as well.
    Why? Because that’s how an ocean kayak looks. If you want something to play with chop on the Great Lakes, an ocean kayak design would do the job.
     
  14. clmanges
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    clmanges Senior Member

    I would not have imagined that.

    That was the idea, because of the high sides and hull shape.

    snip
     

  15. clmanges
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    clmanges Senior Member

    The flattish middle bottom is no doubt to allow the operator to sit on the floor of the boat and keep the CoG low.

    Anyway, the likelihood of my actually building a boat of any kind is pretty close to zero, but I did want to get some input on my idea. I may shop for a different boat, but maybe not. I usually paddle on a good-sized reservoir near me (LaDue), and that isn't strenuous. Lake Erie is fun but a lot more work. My trip there this past summer wore me out because the put-in was about two miles up the Grand River. I've since discovered a possible launch point right on the lake (within Fairport Harbor, actually), and that may solve the problem; I just need to go see it in person first and find out if I'll need a cart.
     
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