Rowing Sailboat/Sailing Rowboat Race Rule

Addendum

I forgot to mention a couple of important things. In Perth we have strong winds most of Summer, and then very little wind at other times. As we have sailboards and a few other sailcraft, we were looking for an activity for Winter which is not too cold in Perth, when we could get out on the water in almost no wind and have fun.
Also I said the spinnaker is for downwind use. This is not strictly correct. It sails really well at an angle of up to 45 degrees of either side of dead downwind.
This makes a total range of 90 degrees. An asymetric spinnaker would probably increase the range from 90 to 130 degrees. The main hull has no daggerboard nor leeboard, nor do I want one, so that upwind sailing was never something I wanted for this boat. The main purpose was really to get exercise and have fun on no or low wind days.

 

Hello Frosh,

I designed a proa for a training daysailer competition sponsored bu Woodenboat (a skiff won). Mine was simple ply, two seats back to back, tramp, daggerboard, and non-reversing in direction. The float was designed to supply counterweight or bouyancy depending on the tack. I think it weighed 50 lbs, and was spaced far enpough outboard to make the whole boat 8 ft wide. The design of the hull was like a long dory. I should have built it, since the idea of proas really appeals to me. The idea was to stay in your cockpit most of the time and use the tramp for real speed when the occasion permitted. The float was as long as the hull, and had just enough bouyancy to float the displacement, if I remember.

 

I did it because I think of these boats as human powered motorsailers. I don't think I would have gotten much out of the sailboat crowd, because they tend to be into to either big boats or pure sailboat racing.

I thought that these tiny boats (400 lbs and < 18ft long) could provide interesting but relatively low cost motorsailer experiments.

I have often thought of a type of motorsailor I call a 'dromon'. It has a rig that can sail all points of sailing, but can only propel the boat in moderate to strong winds.

The mechanical propulsion must do the rest.

But because the sailing rig is capable of sailing out of trouble, the mechanicl propulsion does not have to be all that powerful. A boat like this would be a real gas sipper.

As for my proposed class, I would expect to see a lot of single outriggers as time went on. In my mind, a single outrigger would make a perfect 'dromon', because the rig would not have to be very tall in proportion to the single outrigger's beam to work. It, therefore, would be much easier to keep upright in strong winds.

Bob

 

Well Bob, I can see that your combining of two aspects of propulsion is more than a way to create a new formula. It is an illustration of two aspects of perception, the finite and the infinite, drawn together into a single experience.
The motivation to do so tells me you have an innate understanding of what makes for balance and integrity in all things,
I mean, um, how do you weigh the boats? Four men, like pall-bearers on bathroom scales?

A.

 

I still think that the weight minimum is wrong.

Hi Sharpii2, As the rules of this new concept are not yet set in stone, would you consider a significant change to the all up weight minimum. A 400lb minimum for what will be maybe an 11 ft, one man sailing craft all up, seems hugely excessive to me and almost every other small boat builder in Australia.

 

Frosh:
Americans do not build heavy boats on purpose.. At least not small boats. When I was a kid, an old and wise sailmaker told me that for every pound of boat and crew, the boat must push a pound of water out of the way. That may not be a technical absolute but the idea is leading in the right direction. I never forgot that gem of wisdom.

My little 16 foot Sharpie, fully rigged, weighs 136 pounds. I was sorely disappointed as I thought it too heavy. It has provisions for rowing and also a provision for mounting a small motor so it fits into the class thing herewith discussed. I once built a Moth that weighed in at 54 pounds with rig. That was before we'd ever heard of CF and before the modern moth. Most of we go fast sailors will work for hours to remove a pound of weight. The people who build heavy boats are those that are mass producing fiberglass blobs with a chopper gun and rich resin mixtures. Fanatical sailors do not buy those but casual weekend type sailors do. The casual sailor is more concerned with the perception of durability and visual appeal than he is in good engineering. We do have a large population of non sailors who buy sail boats.

Are you confusing our boats with our automobiles? Americans have an irrational love affair with family automobiles that are built like a tank and weigh 6000 pounds and more. We'll get over that foolishness as soon as U.S. fuel prices catch up to the world market prices.

Sharpii2; Your idea has merit and I can certify that it is fun. Sometimes the guys at gatherings of traditional small sailboats race. Paddling is legal, one may get out and push if desired. It is not legal to throw empty beer cans into the other guys boat, only full cans that have been suitably chilled. Also, protests are not allowed. None of these shindigs have had a set of rules to make the boats more evenly matched. Keep working on this idea it might catch on.

My own pipe dream is to organize sailboat drag races. Simply a short straight course of 150 yards or so. Timed runs through the gates will settle arguments and encourage wagering. Time the boats from running starts as well as standing starts.

 

Messabout- think about it

Hi, what do you mean that Americans don't build heavy boats on purpose? I do NOT refer to commercial mass producer boat builders at all. Simply the home builder enthusiast. For example if you were building a Moth for general fun sailing out of marine ply, what thickness would you use for the skin?
You give me your considered answer, then I will give you mine answer to the same question.
I am definitely not getting confused with automobiles, which is a whole different serious problem for US car makers and consumers in the US. But this topic is not for this forum.
Regards, Sam

 

The issue of all up weight. A clarification.

Allan:

The all up displacement of around 400 lbs is a suggestion, not a requirement.

I figure with a 150 pound person and about 125 lbs of gear, the boat will displace at least 275 lbs even if the boat itself is made of air.

Most people I know weigh considerably more than 150 lbs, myself included.

And the boat itself is going to weigh something, isn't it?

Frosh mentioned in an earlier post that a Moth champ weighed in at 154 lbs.

I think that is cool. But, as much as I would like a race in which skinny teenagers can win, I don't want one which can be won ONLY by skinny teenagers.

BTW I should have put a 125 lb 'cargo' requirement in my proposed rule.

This, I hope, will insure the boats can be used for things other than racing, which, in my mind, is a big problem in the sailboat field.

I think a Moth with a human propulsion system in good working order could do quite well in the sort of race I propose. But, I also think that on a low or no wind day, longer boats would dominate.

Actually, I have no idea of just what proportion of boat length to sail area would come to dominate. But I would hope that designs that row/paddle well and have handy and easy to unship rigs could at least stand some chance of winning.

I can even imagine a series of races these boats could compete in in which even completing the race confers some points to the season's over all score with fleet placement, other than 1st, 2nd, or 3rd is considered as well.

Perhaps the scoreing of each race would start with one point for the boat that comes in last, two points for the boat that comes in ahead of it, and on and on up to the boat that comes in first whose points wil equal the number of boats sailing that day. Has anyone ever tried a point system as bizzare as this.

I personally think that good sport is about much more than winning. It should be about fellowship as well.

Bob

 

The point system could be fun to apply---- Everyone starts with, say 100 points. For instance, boaters arrive to the race. At that point, they place "point bets" based on what they feel their chances are that day. The bets are sealed until the end of the race. A boat sure to lose bets on average not too much (or nothing), but the ones with chances bet higher, based on hubris, and the reverse happens when opposite weather conditions occur. Now the boats on the opposite end of the spectrum bet high.
In this way, no weather condition favors anyone. More than just sailing or rowing, it becomes a mental game, often with high stakes, with excitement the whole way through. Everyone's motivated because they can always put it all on the line. Braggarts get their just desserts and "secret weapons" take on a whole new meaning. After the race the bets are made public. The winner is always the first to cross the finish line, and yet might have won nothing. The second place might very well have bet the farm, and has nothing left. Third place might be saving his points for the next race, and so only lost a few. If ten races are run, it would be possible to reach a 102,400 points theoretically (I think). It would be wild!

A.
A.

 

Hi US compatriots. What is it with the weight problem? I don't mean to offend but what is freaky about a grown man weighing a normal 154lb?
Most people I know weigh considerably more than 150 lbs, myself included. QUOTE
Also what is the 125lb gear? Are we taking tents, gas bottles. pots and pans and canned food for a week?
It is only a race for a few hours, is it not? I would have thought a protein bar and an energy drink (total weight 2 lbs) would be ample.
Honestly I don't get it. Sure I can build a small boat out of half inch ply, but it becomes harder to transport, costs more to build.And it wiill paddle or row with a huge effort, making you tired in about 15 minutes. And it will sail about as fast as an Optimist dinghy. In my book none of this is much fun. Anyway it is purely theoretical for me, as Aussies would never go for this type of event IMHO
Best of luck with it; seriously.

 

Where I live used to be one of, if not THE busiest port in the world. They say you could walk clear across the Penobscot river (1000 ft) by stepping from ship to ship.
Boys grew up on the river, and could sail practically before they could walk. The town catered to a sailing culture. Sails were everywhere on the river, for work and pleasure. Cutting classes and going out on the river to investigate ships of all kinds from every corner of the Earth was every boy's dream.
Today, not one marine dealer within a 20 mile radius sells sailboats. They are seen occasionally---- Sunfishes and a few other plastic boats---- on lakes and ponds, but perhaps one person in a hundred around here knows how to sail. Most have never been on a sailboat, even as a passenger.
Instead, jetskis wail all day up and down any stretch of water with more than a foot of depth. Almost every boat except cheap aluminum jon boats is styled the same--- they look like they were designed by sneaker manufacturers with silly curves on top of curves and stupid graphics (the obligatory "Italian fashion signature", a strange whizzy S-curve in light teal and bronze, the same as is seen on every motor home and camper--- God knows why).
On the coast, thins are different. Rich kids on Summer vacation have parents who belong to expensive yacht clubs. Every yacht club has a class race schedule or two, so a brand new boat is ordered by the parents if the kid wants to win, an Optimist or a US 14 or whatever they're called.
So there is this split, at least between the larger middle and lower middle class group, and the wealthy Summer coast dwellers and native-born blue-bloods.
It's a matter of exposure. Kids around here may never step aboard a sailboat, let alone discover a new way to have fun.
This is why such a race as described in this thread makes sense. Anyone can race, be exposed to every kind of boat, and begin in a way that gets their feet wet without having to spend much or get a co-signer on a loan for a $6000 14 ft class boat.
Later, a few will become unsatisfied with just participating. They will investigate what makes a boat go fast, maybe build their own.
To reach them, however, it is useless to demand they compete with the most sophisticated designs and builders.

When I learned to sail, it was because a girl I knew had a Sunfish, and I borrowed it a lot, went out alone where nobody could see me, and mastered the boat. I didn't want to be seen screwing up. It seems this is a similar case, where a kid or an adult could break into sailing (and rowing) through the back door.

A.

 

Yes Frosh we are "off topic yet", but it is all in good fun. Let us agree that weight is the enemy of high performance. My own preference is decidedly in the light is better direction. But there are compromises that we must make that are a result of design which will influence our choice of material.

A hull with rounded sections can have a thinner skin and remain sufficiently stiff. In the case of a boat with flat sections one must account for the stiffness requirement by increasing the skin thickness or using a large number of frames. My little sharpie has a 9mm bottom and 6mm sides. Anything less and it would pant or oil can badly unless there were numerous frames which I did not want.

The old time Yankee boat builders often built them them with robust scantlings. Aparrently they wanted them to last for a hundred years. The New Englanders of the northeast US are still doing that sort of thing. They are a practical lot and while those boaters enjoy a fair turn of speed they are hesitant to sacrifice durability and hardheaded Yankee tradition to saving a few pounds of weight. In fact many of them will argue doggedly that heavy boats are better. The argument is that a heavy boat will better carry it's way through rough water and carry way through a tack or jibe. They dont give a damn for Newtons F=Ma. Our light boats will respond to a puff and theirs will just continue as before. OK that is just one mind set and that works for those who embrace it.

The dinghy racing sailor is cut from a different cloth. Some of our performance gurus like the Geougeon brothers have been at the worlds fore front of ultra light weight design and construction for both dinghys and larger boats. Way back in time (like 1904) there was a now famous builder named Rushton. He built canoes that weighed 11.5 pounds. Rushton obviosly did not have the advantages of epoxy or carbon or anything else exotic. Today we have numerous builders of kayaks and canoes that use Kevlar and or carbon to produce boats that weigh under 20 pounds. There are legions of other American sailors and builders who burn boundless energy, and lots of money, in their quest for light and fast boats.

I'll wager that there are Aussies a plenty, Tasmanians and Kiwis too, who will opt for a heavily built boat. It is all a matter of end use and personal persuasion.

 

How about this for hull skin thickness!

Hi Messabout, I was almost about to leave this thread, (1) because I couldn't seem to get anyone in the US to understand that a small sailboat doesn't need to weigh 200lb or more for the hull only, and still be strong enough not to pant and last at least 15 years of regular sailing. (2) Because I am convinced that even though regular dinghy sailing is in obvious decline in Australia, Aussies are not of the right temperament to ever adopt this hybrid style of boat racing. However I personally find it quite fascinating and can't leave this thread!
Now to the main thing I wanted to say; hull skin thickness which is a large factor in total boat weight.
I built my 18"6" tri main hull in marine ply and WRC frames. The hull is also fully decked which will add a bit more weight than if it was an open boat.
Bulkheads internally and a large area of the deck is 4mm thick.
Bottom skin is 2mm made by a unique method (in my belief) of cold molding, one layer only. Sheathing of the bottom ply is with one layer of 100 gsm fibreglass of very tight weave, and epoxy resin. You cannot even flex this bottom more than a 2 mm using all the force that you can muster, pushing the botton with your hand.
The topsides are simply 2mm thick marine ply. Epoxy coated inside and out, and no fibreglass sheathing at all, and a polyurethane paint finish on the outside.
By carefully engineering the panel structure there is almost no flexing of the topsides when you push hard with your hand. This boat has sailed in a proa configuration and I estimate that we have exceeded 15 knots a couple of times. There was no panting of any panels, and the whole structure was extremely rigid even at that speed. There must be something wrong in the framing design if a 16 ft. sharpie needs 6mm and 9 mm marine ply to overcome the tendency of the panels to pant. I am not trying to put you down by stating this.
BTW I am not a trained boatbuilder, nor ever a professional craftsman of any sort. I am well read, and experienced in boat building of small craft, and completely self taught. BUT, what I have built, has always worked well and the thickest ply I have ever used for boats, my largest is 23 ft. long is 4mm ply. Quite honestly, I don't see the need to exceed 4 mm for any small boat sailed by 1,2 or 3 people under 20 ft. long.

 

4 mm, or a bit less than 3/16", is not suitable for the needs of many people.
I can understand that to some people, speed is the primary goal.
My own boat is heavy, a fifteen foot gaffer with perhaps a 1500 lb displacement. While docile, and not particularly weatherly, she carries 155 sq ft of mainsl and soon shall have another 30 sq ft of jib.
My goal in sailing is not speed, obviously. Nor am I incapable of understanding structure, and how stiffness can be had at extremely low weight. The truth is I LIKE weight. The boat may not be speedy, but she's a joy to sail in all kinds of conditions. This is the kind of boat where you can sip a coffee when it's blowing 25. The tiller requires little attention, because she's got a full keel. Altogether, a predictable, able, and responsive boat.
Take a look at the thread entitled "wingspar rig". The design shown is a go-fast boat. There's a boat that might be built light, maybe out of 6mm ply.
It has a ballast keel but it represents what could be done with a deep foil that can be raised while sailing.

Alan

 

Frosh;
I defer to your experience and obvious bravery in using very thin skin material. Even if we had the fortitude to build with 2mm skins there would be another constraint that plagues we impecunious ones. We can get 2mm ply, usually in birch wood. It is often referred to as aircraft ply. It costs a princes ransom and then some. We can get very thin veneers that could be used for cold molding. That is also pretty costly and certainly labor intensive.

Part of my problem is that I may be overly dedicated to structural engineering practice, at least in this area. When one applies standard plate deflection formulae, the results are persuasive toward additional thickness. Plate deflection is a function of the cube of thickness, so thin sections, regardless of material, cannot be as stiff as we think we want them to be. That brings up the question of: how stiff is stiff enough? Here opinion is divided. There are arguments for skins that are deliberately flexible. Case in point; The Aleut Bardarka. Not only were those boats animal skin on frame structures, but also the frames were made to flex alarmingly. Frame flexure may not have been deliberate because the boats were made with all joints lashed with animal hide string. Builders were constrained to use the materials and methods that they could find. Though human powered these boats were incredibly fast.

From a technical point of view, a rippling skin is thought to be a detriment because of presumed seperation and miscellaneous eddy making. Many of us fall into that manner of thinking. A small light (by American standards) boat will typically have ten to eleven pounds per square foot of static loading on the wetted surface. That does not seem like much but when applied to large areas of unsupported plate it will cause a lot of deflection. What we must do is to put our skin material in at least partial compression mode as opposed to pure bending. We can do that by making the sections round or parabolic or nearly so. Thus we can build a tortured ply 4mm Tornado.

Alan White is one of those New England Yankees that I mentioned previously. I do believe that his point of view should also be appreciated. In his part of the country there are some absolutely lovely, and God awful heavy, boats that are held in highest esteem by the locals. They'll sail in some very brisk weather with reasonable comfort and assurance that one will get home without benefit of Epirbs. I'm thinking of the likes of a Herrshoff twelve and a half, and similar designs. Yes, they race those things with regularity. The regatta participants are as keen on winning as are the crews of the Aussie 18s. They just have their fun at a slower pace.

Different strokes for different folks.......