row/sail/motor expedition craft

Discussion in 'Boat Design' started by wayne nicol, Sep 21, 2021.

  1. wayne nicol
    Joined: Dec 2009
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    Location: Queen Charlotte islands, B.C.

    wayne nicol Senior Member

    I am looking to build a row/sail expedition boat very similar in concept to these two boats.
    except a bit bigger.

    Sailing RowCruiser https://angusrowboats.com/pages/sailing-rowcruiser
    Faering Cruiser | 22'6" Rowing-Sailing Pocket Cruiser https://www.clcboats.com/shop/boats/pro-kits/clc-faering-cruiser.html

    we are looking for something to cover distance, at little or no cost.
    handle reasonably inclement weather (PNW)- although living on the water, we get to choose the days we go out.
    it will be for fishing and exploration primarily.
    by fishing i mean Salmon fishing in the PNW.

    Row/sail/motor expedition boat

    Tri-hull configuration

    Cat schooner rig

    free standing Masts stepped in tubes to keel, not tabernacles

    Lug sails ( balanced or standing?) or other suggestions

    bow cuddy/cabin for two sleeping- (at a squeeze)

    Non-skid /strong cabin top- access to rig and anchor.

    Self-bailing cockpit for two rowers

    small Dog house, adding buoyancy, limiting following seas in the cockpit

    Lee boards

    fore and aft Akas of same design, redundancy.

    Amas planning design with load/water shedding decks

    More beamy than angus boat ( ?), maybe not as beamy as CLC Faering cruiser (5’)

    22’ to 24’ loa ??

    Wineglass transom / Whitehall style- carry some volume astern for fishing, two rowers.


    Boom Tent for cockpit



    all ideas and input considered
    many thanks all!!
     
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2021
  2. sharpii2
    Joined: May 2004
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    sharpii2 Senior Member

    Some of your requirements seem a bit contradictory. To get a cuddy big enough for two implies a certain amount of beam. If the boat has this beam, it may not need the amas.

    What I think you need to do is to visualize how you're going to use the boat. For example, if you're going to fish off it, isn't the aft mast and the dog house going to be in the way?
     
  3. wayne nicol
    Joined: Dec 2009
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    Location: Queen Charlotte islands, B.C.

    wayne nicol Senior Member

    Hi Sharpii,
    I guess, without explanation they may seem that way.
    I am not hard and fast on all of these points, but these are just a kickoff point.
    Probably because as boaters we always seem to want greatest value with least compromises.

    So for a bit more detail:
    as for a two person cuddy.
    This is obviously not a live aboard, and sleeping in the cuddy would be cramped .
    I am imagining a boat that maybe has a beam of 4'6" .

    As for the rig, thats why i think that a cat schooner may be the best rig, whereas a yawl or ketch would certainly have the mizzen mast in the way.
    with the cat schooner, ( or sharpie type rig), aft of the main would be open.
    I like the idea of the tri-hull for speed when rowing in protected waters.
    We live on an island archipelago, with approx. 1 500 islands and islets.
    Wind shadows are a real issue for us here.
    So maybe if the amas, were actually just a few inches above the waterline for flat water rowing, and the slightest heel would bring them into play.- is that a feasible option?

    I know its a tall order, hence my coming here to ask advice from a community of boaters and designers that i greatly respect!
     
  4. fallguy
    Joined: Dec 2016
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    fallguy Senior Member

    I agree you are contradicting yourself some. Rowing a boat you can sleep on is probably out of the question. The rowing will be inordinately difficult due to the hull width.

    You are also confounding the terms live aboard and comfort. A 4.5' beam is not a very comfortable fishing rig. Sure, you can fish from a kayak, but not sleep.

    google 'freighter canoe camper'

    There is enough room to sleep, but not to sail, nor to row.

    I think you need to realize that you are asking too much here.

    Something has to give with the requirements.

    yes row, no sleep
    yes row, no sail
    Yes sail, no row
    Yes sleep, yes sail, no row, etc.
    Yes sleep, yes sail, yes row, no range
    Yes range, no row, etc.

    All the best. A fishing boat pnw needs to be comfortable. A 4'6" wide beam will not be much fun on the big seas or even 2'ers.

    Prioritize
    fishing
    Sleeping
    Rowing
    Sailing
    Vessel range
     
  5. Squidly-Diddly
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    Squidly-Diddly Senior Member

  6. wayne nicol
    Joined: Dec 2009
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    Location: Queen Charlotte islands, B.C.

    wayne nicol Senior Member

    thanks for your detailed response,
    if one looks at the Angus row/sail boat that i linked in my thread.
    that is pretty much the concept in a nutshell.
    all i am looking to see, before i reinvent the wheel, so to speak, is to see if there is any design out there similar to it, but just a bit bigger that will accommodate two people.
    i am not looking for a live aboard with comfort, just the option to sleep aboard if necessary.

    i do have my main craft, that is a very comfortable stay aboard/vacation aboard .
    i am just looking for something more efficient and quicker to get on the water, easier to row, and relatively easy to fish from.
    i am not trying to commercial fish from it, out in the blue.
    this would be for close to shore and relatively protected waterways.
    i salmon fish from my 17' freighter canoe all the time.
    i just want something that is a bit more weatherly, with a few more options.
    we live right on the water on Haida Gwaii( queen charlotte islands) its an archipelago comprising 1500 islands and islets about 60 miles off the NW coast of Canada, not far from Ketchikan, AK actually!
    So, being right here, we get to pick and choose how and when we go on the water.

    i did email and try and call Angus boats first, before posting here, but have not received any reply from them .
    my ideal solution would be seeing if they would do a larger version of their boat, that i could either buy the kit or at least the plans from.
    i really do not want to just copy their design.

    i pulled this pic off their page of their boat.
    i believe they won the Race2Ak one year with it.
    so its a very proven concept!
    That Race is 750 miles up the PNW coastline and takes about 3 weeks to complete.
    so this boat has legs and endurance.
    so Spartan expeditions are well within this boats reach!
    so, by extension, a two person version, or a similarly bigger boat could only be better, couldn't it??

    many thanks

    angus boat pic.jpg
     
    Last edited: Sep 24, 2021
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  7. wayne nicol
    Joined: Dec 2009
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    Location: Queen Charlotte islands, B.C.

    wayne nicol Senior Member

  8. Tiny Turnip
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    Tiny Turnip Senior Member

    If you were happy to paddle (2 up) rather than row, you could look at a small multihull - cat or tri, easily driven hulls, and a tent/pramhood on the deck.
     
  9. fallguy
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    fallguy Senior Member

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  10. wayne nicol
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    Location: Queen Charlotte islands, B.C.

    wayne nicol Senior Member


    although the boat used in the R2AK, took about 3 weeks to complete the 750 mile trip.
    so i think the concept is certainly viable for extended, but Spartan expeditioning !

    thanks for the input!!
     
  11. Skyak
    Joined: Jul 2012
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    Skyak Senior Member

    What a wonderful cruising ground you have right outside your door! IMHO you should be very careful to NOT spend long hours, even years building a boat that does many, many things -but none well to the point that nothing is worth the trouble of doing it.

    -You have a world class archipelago -I think you should prioritize easy landing and that favors light weight.

    -You mention motoring in the title, but never again -the weight power and trouble of a motor make human power irrelevant except in emergency. If you plan to motor I suggest you buy an existing boat and carry any landing craft you need.

    -If you stick with human and natural power, space and weight will be at a premium -be very careful about adding anything! Consider the weight and space required fore everything, even when it is not in use. This is why there are tons of fishing kayaks and few if any fishing rowboats. Sleeping aboard side by side is another major commitment for weight. I would go with a very nice cockpit tent and definitely not a cabin you need to walk over. This brings me to accommodations. I have seen many builders make intimate accommodations for two, and I see approximately zero miles actually traveled by those couples, and a few relationships ended from stress of building those boats. I think the builders mistake was thinking that feature was a "kitchen pass". I will stop there before I insult anyone, but I do ask -is this truly a design for two or is it a design for two sometimes and one most of the time?

    Some relevant designs
    Row and sail boat concept - Liteboat - Light, stable, easy rowing boats
    Sailboats - Core Sound 17 Mark 3 - B&B Yacht Designs (bandbyachtdesigns.com)
    RoG 'River of Grass' Micro-Cruiser | WoodenBoat Magazine
     
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  12. clmanges
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    clmanges Senior Member

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  13. wayne nicol
    Joined: Dec 2009
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    Location: Queen Charlotte islands, B.C.

    wayne nicol Senior Member

    thanks folks!
    good points about trying to build one boat that does all.
    we do live in paradise, yes!
    and we are a very water orientated community.
    we personally, have a 26' sail boat, a 15' sailing dingy, a dedicated 24' power fishing boat, a few freighter canoes, and a small fleet of SUP's and inflatable skiffs.
    yes i did mention power, i guess old habits die hard, but in retrospect i think this will purely be a pulling /sailing craft.
    you are correct this will be a usually one, sometimes two boat.
    most times it will be used for day trips/ fishing.
    other times we will carry our small hot tent and hammocks and sleep ashore, but on the odd occasion we will need to sleep on the boat, (some beaches are just riddled with bears).
    so its good to have that option.
    we need something that moves easily and fast under oars alone, when we are in one of the many wind shadows up here, but if we hit some chop. the ama's supply the extra stability.
    we wont choose to go out in rough weather, but we may get stuck in it by chance.
    we do need something that can take a bit of green water over the bow, ( open boat and a tent option fails here), handle some stiff chop, and still be workable while we run for cover.
    i worked as a white water guide, for nigh on 20 years, working on the Zambezi and Colorado and many other big rivers around the world, i am not adverse to being wet or pulling on the sticks in rough water!
    i do like the idea of the junk rig.
    i do think the beauty about a split rig, is being able to get more surface area up there without getting too much canvas up too high.
    a cat schooner with junk sails may be the way to go.
    or maybe even just a symmetrical, Sharpie type rig with junk sails.
    i just want something that i can drop in a second when we see a squall coming in, as they do so often here!

    thanks all for the great feedback, please keep it coming!!!
     
  14. peterAustralia
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    peterAustralia Senior Member

    sea pearl
     
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  15. wayne nicol
    Joined: Dec 2009
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    Location: Queen Charlotte islands, B.C.

    wayne nicol Senior Member

    thanks all!
     
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