Route des Princes 2013

Discussion in 'Multihulls' started by Corley, Jun 5, 2013.

  1. oceancruiser

    oceancruiser Previous Member

    Route des Princes 2013

    Thats not the point.


    If the sponsors where running it surely the web site would be over run with their spin and their vessel achievements.
    The only page that a person could identify with who sponsored the race was in the preamble and on the press page.


    On the main page not even the logo or
    boat pic like the press page.


    He was in a class racing and won his class and does not get a mention in the final results. A bit pointed is it not or
    just an over sight.


    The race justifies that there should be a handicap system similar to mono hulls in multihull races. so a comparison can be made
    between the different size boats and how skillfully they where sailed against each other on handicap that makes allowances for size and weight etc that
    if all sail at the same level of skill there would be all boats dead heating on the line. That what the ORC new handicap system VPP is supposed to do.


    "Ratings and measurement rules for handicap International Races Offshore and Club rating handicap system and rules for corrected times. Following a process of verifying all the
    new improvements made by the International Technical Committee (ITC), the Offshore Racing Congress (ORC) is pleased to announce its 2013 VPP is ready for use by
    Rating Offices around the world. Use of the VPP by owners, sailors, sail makers and other industry members will also be available to run test certificates in ORC
    International and ORC Club races.


    Quote from the presentation

    "It will bring together more than a dozen boats divided into three classes: Multi50, MOD70 and Ultimate.
    Enlightened amateurs and the big names of the sailing world will go head to head in an entirely new type of race, one that is characterized by opportunities to meet
    people and moments to remember.
    Enlightened amateurs and the big names of the sailing world will go head to head in an entirely new type of race".

    At the moment you can't make such
    comparisons because each class had different start times and courses except the 70's & 80.

    Other races are going to follow surely for Multis and
    prospective intending participates would surely like to know which boat would be a race winner in all conditions and a news media grabber.

    Accordingly these boats - do they just sit until next year to race?

    And if they want to attract team Australia and team Vodafone and other vessels, not much incentive for them to
    participate, because the 60 class has be demolished and if you are in a class with few participants, you treated like a leper. A handicap system for Multi hulls would alleviate this problem would it not.

    The 80 was a 60 rebuilt using the same platform and crossbeams.

    Do you happen to know how much a MOD 70 ready for racing costs and how much the 80 rebuild cost and the amount the costs are to race on a 12 monthly basis each class. The MOD 70 was supposed to reduce costs compared to a larger boat. The MOD 70,s appear to have more electronic equipment than the 80. The 70 flipped the 80 & 50's did not. The 70 was designed specifically for ocean racing not inshore races. It flipped in a
    inshore race.
     
  2. Corley
    Joined: Oct 2009
    Posts: 3,748
    Likes: 177, Points: 63, Legacy Rep: 826
    Location: Melbourne, Australia

    Corley epoxy coated

    Like it or not winning a class in which your the only competitor is less of an achievement. I've not heard any complaints from Lionel or the Prince de Bretagne team. The team was acknowledged in the Route des Princes press releases and the race gave them an opportunity to shake the boat down and learn more about it over a range of conditions. As to the boats performance yes it goes ok and it should it's 10' longer than a MOD70 has more sail area. The MOD70's and Multi50's offered an engaging show and close racing. I'm sure if the ORMA60's Team Australia and Team Vodafone wanted to compete they would be welcomed in their own class.

    I'm a huge fan of Lionel Lemanchois and the new Prince de Bretagne Maxi you're entitled to your opinion of course but I think you're imagining a conspiracy that doesn't exist. The problem stems from the lack of Ultime's that are available at any one time. Sodebo is hauled out after competing in the Record SNSM and getting prepared for a round the world attempt, Francis Joyon and IDEC are having a break after setting the new Atlantic record. Banque Populaire VII competed in the record SNSM and the Gitana crew chose to take their MOD70 rather than Gitana XI which could have competed in the Ultime category, BPV/Spindrift 2 has only just finished her refit.

    BPVII or Spindrift 2 would have shown the Prince de Bretagne Maxi a clean set of heels in the crewed format of Route des Princes the matchup between PdB Maxi and Gitana XI, IDEC and Sodebo could have been interesting though. Very different boats with widely divergent design philosophies but similar in intent.

    They all cost money to race certainly the Prince de Bretagne Maxi would cost more to maintain than a MOD70 it's a bigger boat which means higher loads but the moderate beam makes that less than if the platform was square. The big advantage the MOD's have is the communal parts bin they have access if someone snaps a lifting foil or daggerboard for example they can go to the parts bin for a replacement. I think masts are available too so that is a huge saving.

    This is a rough translate from JPD discussing the costs of running a MOD70

    The MOD70 is a little more expensive today because there's a crew. The value of the boat is equivalent (3.4 million € to an Imoca monohull) but it takes about 3 million € per year of operation.

    http://trimaranproject.blogspot.com.au/2013/05/mod70-update-virbac-paprec-teams-john.html

    As to handicaps I'm sure they would put them in place if necessary the boats can be rated using the Multihull 2000 handicap method but I don't see the teams clamouring for this to be implemented.
     
  3. oceancruiser

    oceancruiser Previous Member

    Quote

    " Like it or not winning a class in which your the only competitor is less of an achievement. I've not heard any complaints from Lionel or the Prince de Bretagne team. The team was acknowledged in the Route des Princes press releases

    [ +Not in the Final results Page Though +]

    and the race gave them an opportunity to shake the boat down and learn more about it over a range of conditions. As to the boats performance yes it goes ok and it should it's 10' longer than a MOD70 has more sail area. The MOD70's and Multi50's offered an engaging show and close racing. I'm sure if the ORMA60's Team Australia and Team Vodafone wanted to compete they would be welcomed in their own class.

    [ + Two competitors only in a non handicap class would be less of an achievement. Your words + ]

    I'm a huge fan of Lionel Lemanchois and the new Prince de Bretagne Maxi you're entitled to your opinion of course but I think you're imagining a conspiracy that doesn't exist. The problem stems from the lack of Ultime's that are available at any one time. Sodebo is hauled out after competing in the Record SNSM and getting prepared for a round the world attempt, Francis Joyon and IDEC are having a break after setting the new Atlantic record. Banque Populaire VII competed in the record SNSM and the Gitana crew chose to take their MOD70 rather than Gitana XI which could have competed in the Ultime category, BPV/Spindrift 2 has only just finished her refit.

    BPVII or Spindrift 2 would have shown the Prince de Bretagne Maxi a clean set of heels

    [ + so it should BPV11 now Spindrift 11 is 131 ft +]

    in the crewed format of Route des Princes the matchup between PdB Maxi and Gitana XI, IDEC

    [ +IDEC is it not 97.6 ft +]

    and Sodebo

    [+ 105 something ft + ]

    could have been interesting though.

    [+ what would be interesting about that if they where not in a handicap race and all vastly different in sized +]

    They all cost money to race certainly the Prince de Bretagne Maxi would cost more to maintain than a MOD70 it's a bigger boat which means higher loads but the moderate beam makes that less than if the platform was square. The big advantage the MOD's have is the communal parts bin they have access if someone snaps a lifting foil or daggerboard for example they can go to the parts bin for a replacement. I think masts are available too so that is a huge saving.

    This is a rough translate from JPD discussing the costs of running a MOD70

    The MOD70 is a little more expensive today because there's a crew. The value of the boat is equivalent (3.4 million € to an Imoca monohull) but it takes about 3 million € per year of operation.

    http://trimaranproject.blogspot.com.au/2013/05/mod70-update-virbac-paprec-teams-john.html

    As to handicaps I'm sure they would put them in place if necessary the boats can be rated using the Multihull 2000 handicap method but I don't see the teams clamouring for this to be implemented. "

    Not being argumentative Corely but why. You would get more sponsorship, news coverage and following.


    I look forward to reply.

    OC
     
  4. Corley
    Joined: Oct 2009
    Posts: 3,748
    Likes: 177, Points: 63, Legacy Rep: 826
    Location: Melbourne, Australia

    Corley epoxy coated

    I disagree that handicaps would promote interest in non competing individuals all they do for a viewer is introduce confusion. They are great for people who compete not so much for viewers and give non competitive (for line honours) boats a reason to be there as they can still win some tin. These are professional racing boats and teams if they cant achieve line honours then they don't deserve to win. The close racing within the individual classes indicate that the differing designs within their rules compare quite well.

    BPVII is the old Groupama 3, Spindrift 2 is the old BPV confusing I know.

    I didn't say it would be less of an achievement for Team Australia and Team Vodafone to race together just noted that two similar boats racing together in the same class would be more interesting. One horse races by their very nature are less interesting.

    I think it would be an interesting match between PdB maxi, Gitana XI, Sodebo and IDEC because they exemplify different design philosophies and it would be interesting to see how they compared.
     
  5. oceancruiser

    oceancruiser Previous Member


    Any boat entered in a race is a competing entrant and is competing. Does not matter if they are professionals or not.

    Are you saying only professionals win races. Most olympic medal winning sailors seem to be able to win against professionals sailors.

    Disagree with your statement re the handicap system especially the new handicap system giving older designs a bigger allowance due to their max hull speed designs and size. If a crew can sail a boat to its full 100% hull speed design for 100% of the race then they are better sailors than a boat with crew only sailing it to its 60% design hull speed or protential for 69% of the race, but do not take line honours purely because of rich dollars and size of boat gets line honours.



    Thats why the sydney Hobart race is restricted to 103 ft max size to give the southern hems or australians more of a chance to take line honours each year rather than each year a med boat 150 ft or bigger - $80 M or more claiming the sydney hobart race line honours title.

    Small fleets are boring don,t get much news media coverage
    as the sydney hobart race has established and the NZ coastal classic race has acheived by having large fleets.

    Would the news media be interested in covering it on TV with approx 1 1/2 hrs live TV coverage on boxing day if there was only about 9 boats entered.

    I would find a two horse race in the Melbourne cup race boring and not even interesting.


    OC
     
  6. tomas
    Joined: Nov 2012
    Posts: 281
    Likes: 16, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 147
    Location: California

    tomas Senior Member

    HD footage and interview with the crew regarding capsizing:

     
  7. Corley
    Joined: Oct 2009
    Posts: 3,748
    Likes: 177, Points: 63, Legacy Rep: 826
    Location: Melbourne, Australia

    Corley epoxy coated

    I see where your coming from but believe handicaps detract from good racing amongst professional teams, by all means have tight design rules for the professionals but leave the handicaps for amateur teams. They can easily introduce a class within the overall framework which caters for semi professional teams and amateurs and has handicaps if that's what the entrants want. I'm strongly against individual classes being able to claim an overall handicap win in this type of event (the boats are too different in my view for an arbitrary formula to give acceptable results).

    If TA and TVS want to compete (looks unlikely anyway) then they should contact the organisers and request a class for themselves. There are some other charter ORMA's that have been kept in racing trim that might like to compete as well the ones that come to mind are Sopra and Sensation Ocean (the old Foncia ORMA60).

    I personally enjoyed the racing in the Route des Princes all of the classes put on a good show and the event was up for grabs right until the end of the final leg it was also good to see Lionel's Ultime come along and be part of the event. I'd rather an uncompromised event with small fleet numbers and quality racing than a Sydney to Hobart type event.
     
  8. oceancruiser

    oceancruiser Previous Member

    Well the ORC new rating system I think takes care of your concerns, have you read them.
    VPP

    "It is intention of any rating system to give a boat rating which depends on her characteristics in order to equalize her with other boats of different size and characteristics. Characteristics that are positive for boat speed, like length of the water line or sail area, and those that are negative, like beam, displacement and wetted surface, are the most common influences in any rating system. Establishing which of these characteristics influences boat speed is therefore the problem that has to be resolved. Thanks to the developments in modern science and technology, ORC gives the most accurate solution to this problem, and establishes important principles of boat measurement and calculation of corrected times.

    The only possible way to rate boat fairly is to tell how fast she can sail in certain wind conditions or to predict her speeds. To do so, ORC has developed with continuous research and update an ORC Velocity Prediction Program (VPP) as mathematical model which calculates boat’s performance from the set of measurements and gives rating which is then applied for race scoring. ORC VPP is calculating boat’s theoretical speeds for various conditions: wind strength of 6, 8, 10, 12, 14, 16 and 20 knots, direction of true wind from the close-hauled to 52, 60, 75, 90, 110, 120, 135, 150 and 180 degrees. VPP program creates a computer simulation of the boat’s performance based on scientific research of boat hulls in hydrodynamic basins, sails in aerodynamic tunnels and measurements taken on real boats as well as computer fluid dynamics (CFD) tools available nowadays."



    http://www.orc.org/index.asp?id=21

    I was disappointed with the Route de Princes format.

    I wanted to see how much speed difference and pointing ablities difference between the classes [ 50 - 70's ]. They lost that opportunity by giving the 50' s a different route and start times. This was because the on shore set times social activities took or was programned for took more importance at the scene / venue rather than internet or distant race followers. I would prefer a rolling start from the start giving the slower boats there handicaped times before the race at the start in order for them all be closing in on the line simutaneously as close as possible for a spectacle and would show the major flaws in any boat crews ability, professional or not if they came in some two hours later. I,ve gone to the line to see a line arrival and was bored stiff with seeing a single boat cross, Round North Island two hander race, which had started to reduce sails before hand. Some 4 hours later not another boat in sight. It would give excitement to see the boats closing in on the line, the boats would probably in full view of each other and sharpen their velocity made good tatics or racing time skills etc. with electronic assisstance.

    I will have to watch the S to H more closely as I previously thought the event had quality racing untill now. Your more experience observer status is impressive .

    What class do you race in Owen.


    "boats can be rated using the Multihull 2000 handicap method" Can you provide the URL to this system or do you have a copy.
     
  9. Doug Lord
    Joined: May 2009
    Posts: 16,631
    Likes: 311, Points: 93, Legacy Rep: 1362
    Location: Cocoa, Florida

    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    Spindrift

    ============
    Tomas, thank you for that great video! Very much appreciated.....
     
  10. Corley
    Joined: Oct 2009
    Posts: 3,748
    Likes: 177, Points: 63, Legacy Rep: 826
    Location: Melbourne, Australia

    Corley epoxy coated

    I race in mixed multihulls as crew in our club format normally on a C31 or F24 Farrier trimaran. We are getting enough F-22's in the club now that they could nearly race one design without extras certainly a well thought out small boat and a design that will hopefully gain more traction once the production model is released. I've not raced as much as I would like of recent times due to my wife studying full time and the requirement for me to mind the kids. This year I'm taking on a new challenge of being the PRO for our major multihull regatta SOMR (Southern Ocean Multihull Regatta) so I'll get a chance to see the racing and organization from a new perspective which will be fun.

    Once my Kraken 25 trimaran is completed and launched (I'll be able to take my eldest daughter out as crew by then, that would be cool) it will be measured for an OMR rating and also a performance handicap determined by the Hastings Yacht Club handicappers for some round the buoy racing. Do I think a handicaps makes sense for amateur club boats and private owners? Yes.

    The differential routes and/or staggered starts are sensible as the MOD70's and Ultime's are certainly faster than Multi50's unless the conditions are very light and fluky in which case the Multi50's might be competitive due to their lower weight and being in the right spot at the right time. The race was ultimately a commercial event which means it has to bend to commercial pressures. I think they did a pretty good job of not compromising the racing too much.

    When I read the Route des Princes NoR it struck me immediately that it wasn't really a race geared towards amateur participation the minimum 50' length and safety requirements ruled out most amateurs/private owners from competing. I could perhaps see a handicap class within the event for a bridgedeck catamaran/cruisers like a Gunboat (Phaedo, Cucu Belle, Slim?) or perhaps some of the larger Outremer's becoming a reality, maybe next time :cool:
     
  11. tomas
    Joined: Nov 2012
    Posts: 281
    Likes: 16, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 147
    Location: California

    tomas Senior Member

    and I appreciate your contributions here.

    For example, your thread, http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/hydrodynamics-aerodynamics/understanding-wing-technology-34697.html, sparked a great discussion, and many shared good info (most of which is over my head).

    I have a different take on some of the topics that you post about and I know some members here and on SA like to ridicule you about your passionate views but I think you're a good guy.
     
  12. Corley
    Joined: Oct 2009
    Posts: 3,748
    Likes: 177, Points: 63, Legacy Rep: 826
    Location: Melbourne, Australia

    Corley epoxy coated

    So you bought Famuu Sami? Nice boat that one.
     
  13. oceancruiser

    oceancruiser Previous Member

    Owen

    "When I read the Route des Princes NoR it struck me immediately that it wasn't really a race geared towards amateur participation the minimum 50' length and safety requirements ruled out most amateurs/private owners from competing. I could perhaps see a handicap class within the event for a bridge deck catamaran/cruisers like a Gunboat (Phaedo, Cucu Belle, Slim?) or perhaps some of the larger Outremer's becoming a reality, maybe next time"

    Why exclude Trimarans racer / cruisers.

    "boats can be rated using the Multihull 2000 handicap method"

    Can you provide the URL to this rating system or do you have a copy.

    Do you have the URL to the SOMR
     
  14. Corley
    Joined: Oct 2009
    Posts: 3,748
    Likes: 177, Points: 63, Legacy Rep: 826
    Location: Melbourne, Australia

    Corley epoxy coated

    I'm trying to find an actual link to the rule it's based on the Texel system like OMR as mentioned below.

    http://www.multihull-verein.de/index.php/Texel_Rating_2010_updatet

    This is a better article on the handicap systems

    http://www.flerskrog.no/Members/lucas/news/harmonizing-multihull-rules

    An oversight on my part re trimarans I guess the large catamaran cruisers came to mind first. There are a few trimarans around that could meet the criteria some of Kurt Hughes big cruising trimarans for example, Virgin Fire, Paradox a few other ex racing tri.

    At the moment there is no Notice of Race or website available for the SOMR event but will be published on the MYCV blog when available. I'm keen to get a SOMR minisite going but will have to see how that washes with the committee. SOMR is set to be held over Melbourne Cup weekend starting on the 2nd of November and is hosted by the Hastings Yacht Club in Westernport Bay, Victoria.
     

  15. pipeline
    Joined: Apr 2013
    Posts: 24
    Likes: 0, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 10
    Location: Kailua, Oahu, Hawaii

    pipeline Junior Member

    Yes, Corley, I did buy Fa'amu Sami. How did you know? I have been looking hard for a few years for a boat like the Hughes 46...outboard rudder, tiller (not a wheel fan), light, nicely rigged, spartan below, and fast. Price got so low, I had to jump in, though I shouldn't have. Needs cleaning up, so I'm heading back to Maine (from Kailua, Hawaii, where I live), to work on her for a month. If you're up around Rockland (Thomaston) Maine, stop by the Lyman Morse yard to say, "G'day, mate"...Just a short hop from Melbourne...
     
Loading...
Forum posts represent the experience, opinion, and view of individual users. Boat Design Net does not necessarily endorse nor share the view of each individual post.
When making potentially dangerous or financial decisions, always employ and consult appropriate professionals. Your circumstances or experience may be different.