Perfect storm...When windlasses rip out of foredecks...

Discussion in 'Fiberglass and Composite Boat Building' started by souljour2000, Apr 12, 2012.

  1. souljour2000
    Joined: Aug 2009
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    Location: SW Florida

    souljour2000 Senior Member

    This is what happened to PO's boat (now my boat) when 46 mph gusts met an old deck with a heavy windlass sitting on it and a mooring with no snubber did the rest...mostly it was the old rotten deck in operation here.....now it's in need of an operation...
    The center pic shows the chunk of foredeck around the windlass that I cut out with a sawzall ...finally removed windlass from this wonderful piece of composite trash this morning...the piece of teak seen is a base for the winch ...sorry pics aren't better ...you can see there is a couple layers of ply separated by a thin liner between it and the balsa above...one of those ply layers is just a piece of backing for the winch and bolts... the section in question sitting on an old hot-tub lid...so pay that greenish stuff no mind..

    One of the P.O.'s started doing the old standby in the starboard catwalks ... making 5/8 " holes and filling with slow-set epoxy I guess...wondering if I should attempt to finish what they started...If so, I'd try to substantially re-enforce the entire foredeck area where windlass ripped out ...may add stringers of teak and so forth forming a stronger trussed "box" around the winch... if it can feasibly remain ...with the stringers butressed below slightly and tabbed into the upper hullsides of the chain locker.....but the glass layer itself seems rotty and wafer-like...can't really see that glass layer in the pics... the balsa seems dry but rotted probably ...anyways..penny for your thoughts...I know the whole deck probably needs replaced but I just dont have that kind of wad...so any ideas on alternatives I am open to...I am basically wondering if that if I can continue with drilling the holes and filing with thin slow-set epoxy is there a chance I can "re-cement" this type of dried-out rotted glass layer back together enough to have a semblance of a deck ...and re-adhese and fill the balsa core in the process....I know there will be voids but it should all re-adhese a fair bit...enough for coastal/regional cruising in 3-day weather windows...Your thoughts...? Boat in question is a '66 Columbia 40...
     

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  2. PAR
    Joined: Nov 2003
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    Location: Eustis, FL

    PAR Yacht Designer/Builder

    If you catch a delamination quick enough, you can drill holes on fairly tight centers and rebond it. Yours sound way past this point. You can't rebond rotted balsa to the skins and have anything more then gallons of goo, lightly stuck to a contaminated bonding surface on the inside of the skins.

    The usual course is to cut off the outer or inner skin, exposing the core. Remove the core, grind the skins clean, replacing the core with more of the same or a similar thickness substitute (foam, honeycomb, etc.). Lastly rebonding the skin back down (or up).

    This can be done in stages, typically along the molded in waterways on the deck, which is fairly easy to refair and make look like nothing happened. Some like to do this from below, so the deck skin remains intact, but the overhead work is a pain in the bald spot. The injecting goo in holes thing, only works on dry, salvageable cores. Rotted cores aren't salvageable.
     
  3. souljour2000
    Joined: Aug 2009
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    Location: SW Florida

    souljour2000 Senior Member

    balsa is so soft...it's hard to tell if it's rotted...it has that greyish color that oxidized wood gets...seems very dry...but then this end grain balsa has been ripped up out of deck and exposed to dry winter air and sun...the rest of the balsa core could be wet going back from the foredeck of course...the foredeck is a common area of rot of course..but there's plenty of reason to suspect it's gone back through the deck...at the age this boat is...we'll know more this weekend...I'll post more pics when I get back though...
     
  4. souljour2000
    Joined: Aug 2009
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    Location: SW Florida

    souljour2000 Senior Member

    I wish I could do this to my C-40...I think I could do the cabin-sides this way with some veneer...the teak deck however would be too expensive I hear alot of horror stories about leaky teak decks...fine as they look and feel underfoot.....I could live with this kind of looming horror for awhile I suspect..maybe someday..my decks have enough issues at the moment..without drilling screws into it..:rolleyes:...enjoy the pics...they are of "Geechee"...gone across the pond these days...but this C-40 won the Miami-Nassau in 1966...same year mine was built...


    Pics are from their website...french to english available at top:

    http://wf050.lerelaisinternet.com/index.htm
     

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  5. PAR
    Joined: Nov 2003
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    Location: Eustis, FL

    PAR Yacht Designer/Builder

    Teak decks are over rated in Florida. They make the interior hotter then white or cream painted decks. Leaking teak decks are the fault of the owners usually, not the decking system. Everyone loves them, but doesn't do what's necessary to keep them in good shape, so they leak.
     
  6. souljour2000
    Joined: Aug 2009
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    Location: SW Florida

    souljour2000 Senior Member

    Yes..I has some friends in Titusville a while back with a Formosa 41...teak decks made the boat hot as hell if it weren't for the gigantic A/C they bought at Walmart...They are nice though....but I agree...too hot for FLA and the caribbean i would think..I want to cruise w/o Air cond....just a bunch of low-amp fans...strategically placed and in quantity...this is my first boat with a salon hatch...bumping air down into the main cabin...but A/C in a Fla summer liveaboard static situation is let's say...desirable...?
     
  7. souljour2000
    Joined: Aug 2009
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    Location: SW Florida

    souljour2000 Senior Member

    Okay..I have re-examined the cut out piece of deck that the windlass had been mounted on...(new pics below)...The balsa core has not delam-ed from the outer glass layer....and..after scratching off oxidation or greying of the balsa...it shows good normal yellow-brown color...so not rot here at least..
    It's not rocket science I guess...I just think that the windlass is so tall and heavy...(45 lbs or so)...and the short leash of a mooring with no snubber and a short mooring chain....the lever arm and resulting shock loads were incredible on the area of foredeck where the windlass was.....considering you have an 18,000 lb boat pitching in 45 mph gusts...

    I'm not out of the woods yet...there is still alot of deck to inspect..but I am bit relieved I must say....and I know the deck is less than ideal..but maybe after I continue the re-core with hole-drilling and epoxy...it may be okay for my needs...it's gonna have to be..
     

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  8. Frosty

    Frosty Previous Member

    4 individual bolts is all that held your windlass to the deck. It is made to haul an anchor.

    To moor a boat in high winds needs other considerations.
     
  9. souljour2000
    Joined: Aug 2009
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    Location: SW Florida

    souljour2000 Senior Member

    Yeah...four bolts Frosty..it's an old Simpson-lawrence 555 Seatiger...Anyone wanna buy it?...I just cleaned it up and painted it...500 bucks and you pick up...seriously..but anyways...I think it might be too heavy and cumbersome for the kind of foredeck I want to have...There was a brand-new heavy duty SS sampson post I found in the boat...think I might mount that instead after re-building the foredeck with a trussed teak /stringer "box" surrounding where the sampson post will be..and an electric windlass behind it at some point...with a remote or way to take up anchor-rode slack from the cockpit...
     

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  10. Frosty

    Frosty Previous Member

    I know it well. I modified one to electric using a diesel 12v starter motor running on 24 volts attached to the low gear. It was a mean barsteward.
     
  11. souljour2000
    Joined: Aug 2009
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    Location: SW Florida

    souljour2000 Senior Member

    I hate to get rid of it...(btw.I'm in SW FLA..500 bucks you pick up)...but..ehem..it is a big barsteward as you said...and I know it's too big and bad for my deck...will free up some room though...and I can always free up a badly-stuck anchor with either the rear winches...or my first choice which is snug up the slack in the chain to the samson post on a forward idle or walk it out on a rising tide...but hopefully I can find a better mooring where I can just un-hook and go most of the time for day-trips...right now its in 6 -7 feet of water on 70 feet or so of chain up the roller and to the stern cleat and back to the mast...best I can do till deck-rebuild...waiting to see if I can move it nearer to me..or just gonna have to go down and stay on for a couple nites and do the deck-re-build it looks like...rainy season coming fast...
     
  12. mydauphin
    Joined: Apr 2007
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    Location: Florida

    mydauphin Senior Member

    Just finished doing a repair like this. Many times when you start rebuild you find there is more rotten than meets the eye. You end up redoing the whole area. The rode/chain closet, deck and bulkheads are all suspect. Injecting epoxy into rotten wood is to going to do job. Consider reinforcing from underneath with an aluminum plate much wide than windlass, but rest of structure has to be up to it.
     

  13. souljour2000
    Joined: Aug 2009
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    Location: SW Florida

    souljour2000 Senior Member

    Dauphin,

    I hadn't thought of putting an aluminum plate across there...seems apropos for a windlass of this size on a fairly lightly -constructed deck originally...I heard one of the PO's did salvage..maybe that explains the big bad 555 windlass...it would have been normal for a boat this size if they just had beefed up the deck more when installing it originally but it did last awhile I guess...I really need to take the toe rails off back at least maybe back to where the coachroof begins...the toerails in the bow are pretty beat up ...starboard fairlead took the deep six when the windlass ripped up... those sections of toerail definitely will be removed...then I can have a look under them....see whata slice of the hull-deck joint looks like...a plate of alluminum across that foredeck seems the right way to go in my situation right now...if I do remove the windlass possibly..it would anchor the sampson post I'd put there in it's place
     
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