Roberts 345

Discussion in 'Metal Boat Building' started by tazmann, Mar 4, 2009.

  1. tazmann
    Joined: Aug 2005
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    tazmann Senior Member

    Hello All
    I had mentioned on another thread that the wife and I desided to build the Roberts 345 MC steel for a retirement boat, So I orderd the plans while they were on sale. Thought I was getting printed plans and paterns but to my suprize no only CD version, So I take them to a blueprint printing out fit and get everything printed, Low and behold there is no lines drawing or table of offsets only these huge peices of paper to peice together to get the lines, sure dont seem acurate that way. So far the emails they sent back to me said that they dont print out table of offsets only plot to patterns, I did email again and ask for lines drawing and offsets we shall see what happens.
    I guess the moral of the story is dont assume nothing even though its worded that it comes with this that and the other, dont make it so
    Tom
     
  2. welder/fitter
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    welder/fitter Senior Member

    When working on Jason's boat, I asked him if he had the plans. He did, but the lines drawing & offsets were "missing", as I recall. Go figure.
     
  3. tazmann
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    tazmann Senior Member

    Ya Mike its a bit upsetting actualy. His email response was they dont have a lines drawing or offsets , that it would be time consuming and costly to re enter into computer to get offsets and lines.
    I dont know that much about computer desighning but how can you desighn a boat without lines? They did ashure me that 300 boats had been built with these patterns and that they were very acurate.
    I guess my expectations were to high after reading what comes with plans and patterns from his website, Sheet 2 lines drawing, keel skeg rudder ect. I figured out a work around , draw out from patterns and create table of offsets then loft.
    Tom
     
  4. welder/fitter
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    welder/fitter Senior Member

    It's amazing, isn't it? On the BR site, they brag about how easily their kits go together, even have testimonials from some customers. Yet, on other sites, I've read posts by builders of their patterns, even those who have bought the cutting files & had the pieces cut, complain about how they don't go together well. When I bought the lodestar plans, the first thing I asked on the phone was, "now, you are including the lines drawings & offsets tables, right?"

    On the bright side, if you do "work it backwards", it'll be good practice for copying another hull design, in the future... naw, it doesn't make it any brighter, forget I said that.
     
  5. tazmann
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    tazmann Senior Member

    LOL
    Messed with the patterns today and turns out there not accurate eather.
    The outside one for the half frames wont line up with the next one, lines are about 3/16" off. The DWL and Headboard lines not paralel on patterns.
    Its going to make it tough to build a fair boat with no lines,table of offsets or accurate patterns. No scaled station frame drawings eather.
    I did send them an email with photos of them, hopfully they figure somthin out. To many peices of the puzzle missing, several places on the plans refur you to see sheet 2 for details but they say it dont exist same with detail polio# and didnt get those eather.
    Starten to think this ones doomed before it gets started.
    I wanted to build the Roberts dinghy from aluminum and its posted several places on the site that the plans for it come with every set of plans and patterns sold. wood, fiberglass and aluminum but only got the ones for wood or fiberglass.
    I would think as long as this guy has been in the buisness he would be selling complete plans and not using false advertising.
     
  6. tazmann
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    tazmann Senior Member

    Well not much help from Roberts, Story changed a bit, first the pattern bit was very accurate now its asuming the printer printed accurate.
    I think I'm finished with Bruce Roberts Design, shouldnt be like this.
    On the bright side I contacted Phil Hoggs "Bruce Roberts International"
    and He said there plans for the 345 have a good lines drawing and table of offsets for lofting on the multi chine version but not the RC version as of yet.
    Tom
     
  7. welder/fitter
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    welder/fitter Senior Member

    Considering that Robert's targets the amateur builder, this is a really raw deal. I can well imagine some guy buying his materials, spending much time scribing & cutting, welding up frames, only to discover what you have found. Maybe, Hoggs will sell you what you need for a decent price? Best of luck.
     
  8. daiquiri
    Joined: May 2004
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    Location: Italy (Garda Lake) and Croatia (Istria)

    daiquiri Engineering and Design

    We have built a Roberts' Euro 1200 here from the plans supplied on CD and had none of the problems you have mentioned.
    We've sent the dwg nesting files to a nearby office with a numerically-controlled plasma cutter, got the pieces back and assembled them with no problems at all. It all fitted together like Lego bricks.
    I've successively made a lots of modifications to the original structure of the boat, but the original pieces were designed with more than acceptable precision. I think it depends a lot on the quality of cutting machine. If something goes wrong at the cutting stage, you'll surely have problems during the assembly/welding phase.
    You can see the photos of the boat in my gallery.
     
  9. tazmann
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    tazmann Senior Member

    After getting PO'ed and emailing them That I was not a happy camper and that if they couldnt supply a full set of plans I wanted a refund.
    Checked my email thismornin and I have sheet 2A and B full lines drawings with table of offset. Things are lookin brighter.
    daiquiri
    Glad to here it worked out without a hitch for you, In my case getting the patterns printed local, the printer was having an off day and if I would have blindly started building frames to them things would have turned out a desaster.
    Tom
     
  10. rugludallur
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    rugludallur Rugludallur

    Don't use paper patterns

    I would advise against using paper patterns, paper is not dimensionally stable and is subject to shrinkage/expansion because of changes in temperature and humidity.

    In some cases as much as 6% shrinkage can occur, that's a large error in a big boat.

    If you must have patterns printed use mylar or at least resin coated paper which is far more stable.

    Jarl
    http://dallur.com
     
  11. welder/fitter
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    welder/fitter Senior Member

    Good to hear, Tom!

    daiquiri, I understand that there were challenges with the patterns/plans for the Euro 1200, when they were first brought out. In fact, I was talking to someone who is selling an unfinished project, locally, and he said that he'd had challenges & was told by "Gail"(?) from Bruce Roberts, that the new "kit" was was more accurate. He told me that he didn't want to "fork out 20 grand" at that time, but that - after he raised some hell, they sent another cd which he believes has been corrected, in terms of deficiencies. Of course, he'd already done a fair bit of the construction & has decided to sell the hull/deck rather than making the corrections. Personally, I only know what I have seen and could not suggest that the design info. was the problem, as whoever originally constructed the 345 hull I worked on, must have been drunk at the time.

    rugludallur, I agree completely with what you are saying. I am sure that Tom's reasoning behind wanting lines drawings & tables of offsets was to check the accuracy of the patterns. That is certainly why I wanted them for my future lodestar build. I wouldn't trust any pattern that I didn't have drawings for. When recently building a public ferry in our local shipyards, my boss became upset with me for making templates of areas that had already been templated by a fitter on the afternoon shift. I wasn't about to tell him that I didn't have faith in the other guy's work, still, I found them to be inadequate and, because of drawings, was able to ascertain that he'd made significant errors. I wouldn't even use mylar without the info & drawings at hand to check them. Too much hard-earned money to gamble away!
     
  12. tazmann
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    tazmann Senior Member

  13. welder/fitter
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    welder/fitter Senior Member

    Yeah, the guy's doing a decent job, by the looks of things. I think that I'd want to beef up that skeg though. I understand that there were problems with some of the BR rudders snapping off/bending. I noticed that they offer a new skeg design for some of their boats, now, which look much stronger. Do they offer the new design for the 345?
     
  14. tazmann
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    tazmann Senior Member

    The saftey skeg he calls it, you have to contact him and pay for the plan seperatly. There are a couple options to beef it up a bit in the plans. I sure wouldnt trust it myself if you didnt , as deep as it is and only about 2" wide where its attached to hull.
     

  15. rugludallur
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    rugludallur Rugludallur

    Vibrations in the skeg

    I can't tell for sure from these pictures but if the skeg is has a rounded leading edge but flat sides would it not be susceptible to vibrations and ultimately metal fatigue?

    Perhaps a boat designer with more knowledge than me could comment?

    Regards

    Jarl
    http://dallur.com
     
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