River Roller! Pontoon Boat that Rolls Across the Water!

Discussion in 'Boat Design' started by Matthew Lee Towne, May 10, 2017.

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Do you think the River Roller will work?

  1. Yes

    1 vote(s)
    2.4%
  2. No

    34 vote(s)
    82.9%
  3. Maybe

    6 vote(s)
    14.6%
  1. Matthew Lee Towne
    Joined: May 2017
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    Location: Oviedo

    Matthew Lee Towne Senior Member

    Thanx again for all of your responses. There is some very good analysis here. To much for me to digest right now. I am also concerned about the traction of the trailing trantoons. I thought this might be addressed by differing speeds. But now I'm thinking gradually making larger diameter trantoons as you go aft might be necessary. Of course this might negate the trailerable aspect. Do you think gadually larger diameters and rpms might do the trick? This would also allow power to be sent to the most effectively submerged paddles.


    Radio
     
  2. Matthew Lee Towne
    Joined: May 2017
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    Location: Oviedo

    Matthew Lee Towne Senior Member

    Hello All,
    I have a few observations and questions based on all of your analysis. First let me start out by laying out a few things.
    Observations:
    1. Electric motors deliver all of their torque and horsepower at 0 rpm. That means if you have 500hp its available to you immediately. Thats why Teslas are so quick. You guys have heard of Teslas right? The Tesla P100D is the quickest car ever produced.
    2. My 5000 pounds is the buoyant force I calculated for 25% of the trantoons being submerged. I never expected this weight to be efficient or even plane out. I figured like all overloaded pontoon boats they would just cruise around slowly. Clearly the lighter this design is, the better it will perform.
    3. Everyone seems convinced that the trailing trantoons will be less effective. The water will be aerated and the trailing trantoons will have little effect.

    So with all that being said some questions for all of you:
    1. Don't you think there will be a tipping point with weight and power where this will easily climb out of the hole? Especially considering that the power will be available immediately? Traction at 0mph should be equally effective for all trantoons. Not to mention they should be more equal when on plane.
    2. Do you think that when planing is achieved that there is a capacity for great speed with great control? The faster a regular boat goes the more it becomes like a skipping stone and is prone to behave like one. With this design is would actually be a speed and control benefit for the craft to stay partially submerged. The paddles could be designed to "Grip" the water in high speed applications.
    3. If the stern sinks lower in the water during application of heavy power, can't that be addressed with greater speeds and by the trailing trantoons? Not to mention wont the trantoons eventually sink to the point where they do have traction?

    Heres what I think will happen. From a stand still 500hp if instant power will be applied to at least 20 square feet of paddle area shooting this thing out of the hole like a bullet out of a barrel. Weight permitting. And yes I do know what the hole is. And yes I've spent plenty of time on boats. They are huge pain in the butt. Many of my design decisions are to put pleasure back into pleasure boats.
     
  3. PAR
    Joined: Nov 2003
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    Location: Eustis, FL

    PAR Yacht Designer/Builder

    The hydrodynamic attributes of your athwart 'toon's, their paddles and the appropriation of the power, no matter how instantaneous it might be, will prevent anything more than beating the water to a froth, in the first few revolutions of the drive. The hull form has a lot to do with the vessel's ability to get up on plane. Your's isn't remotely close to what may be necessary. Can it do modest displacement speeds, probably, though not very efficiently. There's no good way to sidestep physics.
     
  4. upchurchmr
    Joined: Feb 2011
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    Location: Ft. Worth, Tx, USA

    upchurchmr Senior Member

    1. No. You will have a great thrashing aireation machine, but transfering the power to the water will require huge paddles.
    You have no planing surface.
    The rollers or paddle wheels have an uplifting force when the paddle hits the water and a lifting force when the paddle exits. No planing.
    2. You aren't going to get high speed, cause you will never transmit the power to the water.
    3. The more the "toon" sinks the more energy is wasted by slapping the water on entry and throwing it up on exit.

    If you apply 500 HP on startup, you will fill the water with bubbles, loosing the hydrostatic flotation. It ought to sink into its own hole.

    IMHO.

    This is a Disney land fantasy about flying on a dragon. Fun visual treat but no cigar.

    I've been wrong once or twice, show me this time.
     
  5. Matthew Lee Towne
    Joined: May 2017
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    Location: Oviedo

    Matthew Lee Towne Senior Member

    Hello All,
    I thought it might be time for some visual aids. In case your confused UPCHURCH the blue stuff is water. This pic shows an approximation of how much the trantoons would be submerged at it's lightest. At its heaviest the subersion would be about twice that. I just don't see the paddles being that inefficient at either depth. Especially when compared to pushing a hull through the water. Just saying.
    FIGURE17.png
    View attachment 133458



     
    Last edited: May 18, 2017
  6. Matthew Lee Towne
    Joined: May 2017
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    Location: Oviedo

    Matthew Lee Towne Senior Member

    The buggies are the proof that planing is possible. Ok so lets say you are right, I need a running start on land to achieve planing on water. What can this design do then? Don't tell me that it can't maintain plane. If the buggies can do it, some variation of this design can do it. Don't you think that there is potential for great speed with great control?

     
  7. upchurchmr
    Joined: Feb 2011
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    upchurchmr Senior Member

    Blue = water. Got it.

    Have you ever seen a paddle wheel work up close?
    I have - there use to be a competition locally for human powered paddle wheeled boats.
    To be efficient you need the wheel to be about 10x the diameter you show, otherwise there is a lots of lost/ wasted energy.

    Cute graphics are no match for physics/ engineering. Refer back to my comment on flying on a dragon.

    Talks cheap (including mine) so show us how it works in the real world. Make a 4' model - RC controlled. You can afford that and you can cheat on weight of the boat to give a better chance.
     
  8. Matthew Lee Towne
    Joined: May 2017
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    Location: Oviedo

    Matthew Lee Towne Senior Member

    It's interesting you bring up Disney. I live in the Orlando area and get to hear many of his quotes. The most appropriate being "If you can dream it you can do it". I will prove it, but don't have to. The mere fact that you don't think there is ANY merit here whatsoever, or fail to acknowledge it, tells me you are already wrong. This design, in some variation, will be useful to someone, somewhere, somehow.

    The 3d printer came in today. I'm modeling the trantoons tonight. Once again I will enjoy proving you wrong the most.

     
  9. Matthew Lee Towne
    Joined: May 2017
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    Location: Oviedo

    Matthew Lee Towne Senior Member

    OK I just had to comment further. I think that planing surface is minimally relevant with this design. You are all trying to fit this into conventional boat design. It doesn't fit. If you were pushing this with a prop maybe. But were not. Get over it. It doesn't fit. So we are all just speculating. I'm willing to stop stating it as a fact. Are you? We just don't know. We are guessing. All I'm saying is this can be engineered to serve some useful or entertaining purpose. Once you acknowledge that I can start taking your criticisms seriously. Otherwise you are just trying to build yourself up by trying to tear me down. Its ironic. You are only motivating me and discrediting yourself. I'm guessing if I search the forums I will find more of such behavior. Focus on the positive. Minimize the negative. Engineer=Realist=Cynic=Negativity. Love it. Live it. Build it.

     
  10. Matthew Lee Towne
    Joined: May 2017
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    Location: Oviedo

    Matthew Lee Towne Senior Member

    PAR you, and I don't know if it will work. Well Ok, I guess I do know it will work. But we don't know how or for what purpose. There's not enough information. So why are you saying such?

     
  11. upchurchmr
    Joined: Feb 2011
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    upchurchmr Senior Member

    Go for it. Glad to help you onward.
    It's like the old saying: Some make people happy by coming, some by leaving.
    Please post a complete report.
     
  12. ondarvr
    Joined: Dec 2005
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    Location: Monroe WA

    ondarvr Senior Member

    Matthew

    Out of curiosity I'd love to see someone build this craft, keep us updated.

    Watch the other videos related to my link, and look closely at how it rides on the water at different speeds.
     
  13. Dave T
    Joined: Sep 2011
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    Location: Anamosa Iowa and North Buena Vista on the Mississi

    Dave T Senior Member

    I can see that nobody is going to convince you this isn't going to work so go ahead and build the model and post plenty of pictures as you go. Good luck my vote is still no it won't work for many reasons I hope you can prove me wrong.
     
  14. Matthew Lee Towne
    Joined: May 2017
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    Location: Oviedo

    Matthew Lee Towne Senior Member

    Ok so clearly I have some work to do to convince all of you from a technical perspective. What about from an aesthetic perspective? The front of the River Roller is the only part I'm really happy with. The bimini is the best I could come up with, but not very good. That being said, do any of you think this could be worked into an attractive design for a pontoon, trimaran or standard hulled boat? The current aesthetics for pontoons are just pathetic. Standard hulls aren't much better. Isn't it time to make a boat that will turn some heads? I'm not saying my design is the best, but come on, surely somebody has to be producing some cool looking boats out there.

     

  15. rwatson
    Joined: Aug 2007
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    rwatson Senior Member

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