Reverse bows on cruising cats pros and cons

Discussion in 'Multihulls' started by DennisRB, Mar 1, 2013.

  1. tomas
    Joined: Nov 2012
    Posts: 281
    Likes: 16, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 147
    Location: California

    tomas Senior Member

    Thanks rberrey.

    It is a balance, though in the end, the customer pays the bills.

    If you read Ad Hoc's posts, one of our resident NA's, the client's SOR trumps all.

    Here's another example from a well-known designer here:
    I snapped these photos in Miami because I think these are power-crazy examples of what customers want.
     

    Attached Files:

  2. CutOnce

    CutOnce Previous Member

    Actually, this concept doesn't always hold true.

    If a client tries to force their vision in direct opposition to the professional opinion of an engineer, it is the professional obligation of the engineer to make all efforts to either convince the client to follow their advice or to cease the engagement if the client's vision compromises safety or increases danger to anyone who may come in contact with the design.

    Customers that are willing to put my professional reputation in danger aren't worth doing business with. I've walked away from many projects that were questionable - and never regretted doing so.

    --
    CutOnce
     
  3. tomas
    Joined: Nov 2012
    Posts: 281
    Likes: 16, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 147
    Location: California

    tomas Senior Member

    True. Implicit in my posts is the notion "within reason", which is the domain of the NA/designer.

    Any client stories you're willing to share with us?
     
  4. DennisRB
    Joined: Sep 2004
    Posts: 1,268
    Likes: 25, Points: 48, Legacy Rep: 228
    Location: Brisbane

    DennisRB Senior Member

    That sounds very reasonable to me. I wouldn't want even want it to be possible to force a NA into designing an unsafe unsuitable boat. That benefits no one.
     
  5. DennisRB
    Joined: Sep 2004
    Posts: 1,268
    Likes: 25, Points: 48, Legacy Rep: 228
    Location: Brisbane

    DennisRB Senior Member

    Some people have more money than sense. So let them do crazy stuff like that. Makes it interesting for us to look at. If it sucks, well they won't go broke. I certainly don't have more money than sense, and I am not trying to say I have huge amounts sense either. :p
     
  6. Ilan Voyager
    Joined: May 2004
    Posts: 1,242
    Likes: 159, Points: 63, Legacy Rep: 758
    Location: Cancun Mexico

    Ilan Voyager Senior Member

    I agree with you heartily on this assertion.
    Dennisrb; Ad Hoc works for professionals, not dilettantes or amateurs, and the SOR is debated before the first calculation: the emphasis oF Ad Hoc (his pseudo says all...made to fit) is to define the SOR precisely without internal contradiction, so the design can be done "smoothly" without trying to conciliate impossible goals. Sponberg has to deal with yacht customers, and if the thing the customer wants is just a nuisance without consequences for the security, he'll do it as everybody he has to pay his bills. It's the sad fate of the naval architects working in yachting.

    Like michael pierzga, I'm a strong believer that the function dictates the design and raked bows are a nuisance on cruising boats for the reasons he exposed so well. A cruising boat must be "intuitively" comfortable with good surfaces easy to walk on securely for all the maneuvers. And anchoring is an important one.
     
  7. Richard Woods
    Joined: Jun 2006
    Posts: 2,207
    Likes: 161, Points: 63, Legacy Rep: 1244
    Location: Back full time in the UK

    Richard Woods Woods Designs

    Tomas, Rberry. I understood what you were saying

    The OP called this thread "Reverse bows on cruising cats pros and cons" not "reverse bows on racing boats or beach cats". And he asked for cons as well as pros.

    I find it interesting that the full time designers and those with a lot of cruising multihull experience have a different take on reverse bows than do others.

    If you have never had an anchor wrap round the bow then you are lucky and have presumably never anchored in strong wind over tide situations. Those who have never had to fend off from the bow are clearly expert sailors (and again maybe lucky)

    Many styling features may sell well for a year or two, but in the long term sensible design wins over style. Remember the fashion for barrel shaped "low windage" decks that proved impossible to walk on when at sea. Or the very sloped forward windows that cracked and leaked while at the same time turned the saloon into a greenhouse

    Richard Woods of Woods Designs

    www.sailingcatamarans.com
     
  8. Gary Baigent
    Joined: Jul 2005
    Posts: 2,994
    Likes: 116, Points: 63, Legacy Rep: 509
    Location: auckland nz

    Gary Baigent Senior Member

    Sure anchoring is important and I guess cruising yachts spend most of their time at anchor (not being facetious) - but if you're sailing long distances, would prefer the efficiency of a longer waterline length and faster sailing. A cruising cat moors with a bridle anyway, and not off one bow - so your argument doesn't hold water (so to speak).
    There are no rules, make your choice to what you prefer.
     
  9. DennisRB
    Joined: Sep 2004
    Posts: 1,268
    Likes: 25, Points: 48, Legacy Rep: 228
    Location: Brisbane

    DennisRB Senior Member

    I guess with rope you might get a wrap in wind against tide. Even with chain it might be possible. I have been anchored in wind against tide in a deep draft mono with bulb. Overnight the motion got worse and noisy. In the morning we were beam on to the small chop as the chain had wrapped the bulb keel. However having a bulb 7 foot under water is going to present more problems for chain to get caught on than a bow which is at and above the water level. But I would not say impossible.

    Also, it keeps getting mentioned that a reverse bow reduces deck space in interior volume. I knew people would say that which is why I included an example of a boat lengthened by a reverse bow extension in the first post, and mentioned a few times since. Surely anyone can see deck space stays the same and interior volume goes up. This is not an argument to say reverse bows are good on a cruising boat overall, but to keep saying deck space and interior volume will be reduced is wrong. Clearly an increase in volume is a pro here not a con.
     
  10. Ilan Voyager
    Joined: May 2004
    Posts: 1,242
    Likes: 159, Points: 63, Legacy Rep: 758
    Location: Cancun Mexico

    Ilan Voyager Senior Member

    Yes, these horrible "blister roofs" with the sloppy plexyglasses, generally black: no light, and breaking in the sun...just good to kill you...I agree with Richards Woods; security, comfort for the maneuvers, a dry cockpit well protected from the cold wind with good ergonomic seats that do not break your ***. Brief a good boat for cruising, not fashion.
    I do not see any advantage on a CRUISING multi for raked bows, you get the same LWL with a plumb bow with far more volume inside and a wider deck. It's also structurally stronger...I imagine the damages on a raked bow in case a bad maneuver in a marina, and also the damages that can inflinct to another boat...Beaching with a raked bow, I hear already the noise of the breaking composite, and I love multis able to beach on nice white sand close to the cocos.
    With a same overall length you'll loose volume an deck, no way. Raked bows are intended to diminish the front volume, and to cut the water obliquely. Notghing interesting in cruising, except "like racing looks". The same as a spoiler on a 55 mph car, just more drag.
     
  11. Richard Woods
    Joined: Jun 2006
    Posts: 2,207
    Likes: 161, Points: 63, Legacy Rep: 1244
    Location: Back full time in the UK

    Richard Woods Woods Designs

    I always anchor with a bridle, see photo of my Eclipse catamaran anchored in the San Blas islands of Panama, but it doesn't stop the warp catching on the bow. Look at the photo, then imagine a stern wind that blows the boat forwards, then imagine a tide taking you sideways at the same time and you can quickly see that the warp CAN catch under a bow, even with a bridle, so I stand by my fourth paragraph above

    To Dennis RB. Marinas, insurers, legislative bodies etc measure overall length, not length on deck. I think you'll agree that a boat with a ram bow that is then made vertical will have more interior room. So all you are really saying is that longer boats have a bigger interior

    Richard Woods of Woods Designs

    www.sailingcatamarans.com
     

    Attached Files:

  12. oldsailor7
    Joined: May 2008
    Posts: 2,097
    Likes: 40, Points: 48, Legacy Rep: 436
    Location: Sydney Australia

    oldsailor7 Senior Member

    Very interesting thread. :D
    When you ram a dock (and who hasn't), an overhanging bow will usually ride up on the stem. A "ram" bow is just that, a potentially destructive prow.
    My very first Tri was a Piver Nugget, --with a clipper bow, I loved it.
    I was an inexperienced sailor at that time and it saved me from damaging someone else's topsides more than once. Wharram has overhanging bows on all his designs. His Cats have lots of room in the bows, look nice and have good sea keeping qualities too. Although the reverse bows may be advantageous, even look "cool"on small beach cats, "A" class racers and ocean racers such as Idec and Sodebo, ----there is no logical reason for them on CRUISING boats.
     
  13. Ad Hoc
    Joined: Oct 2008
    Posts: 6,609
    Likes: 617, Points: 113, Legacy Rep: 2488
    Location: Japan

    Ad Hoc Naval Architect

    Isn't that always the case though with most things "subjective" to some (as their only frame of reference), yet borne more out of practical and actual design experience for others....and never the twain shall meet :eek:
     
  14. Alik
    Joined: Jul 2003
    Posts: 2,900
    Likes: 237, Points: 73, Legacy Rep: 1306
    Location: Thailand

    Alik Senior Member

    Reverse bow is excellent sample of 'totally innovative', 'eye catching', 'stunning' and 'I want this type of appearance' approach. The guy who have seen it and he wants it, same as 4 year old child wants another toy.

    Though it is not practical both to build and use, this type of nonsense is now can be found in many designs. We as designers have to sometimes to follow the fashion :) Who is not using reverse bow 'is not thinking outside the box' and can not produce 'edgy design' :D

    Mass consumption World is it.

    Look at this type of floating absurd with anchor at bottom:
    [​IMG]
     

  15. Ilan Voyager
    Joined: May 2004
    Posts: 1,242
    Likes: 159, Points: 63, Legacy Rep: 758
    Location: Cancun Mexico

    Ilan Voyager Senior Member

    I understand all the glasses around as that thing must be the wettest floating object since the birth of Adam. Just bling bling.
    I like the third white oval piece of sh.. that looks that an syphilitic ulcer on the nose of the bride. Just curiosity, how do you go to the front deck and how you tie this NIFO (non identified floating object) in a marina?. I do love the anchor...even after 3 tequilas I could not be able to dream such an absurdity.
     
Loading...
Forum posts represent the experience, opinion, and view of individual users. Boat Design Net does not necessarily endorse nor share the view of each individual post.
When making potentially dangerous or financial decisions, always employ and consult appropriate professionals. Your circumstances or experience may be different.