Requesting Small Sternwheeler hull design and analysis help

Discussion in 'Boat Design' started by phrogjlf@yahoo, Nov 18, 2014.

  1. FMS
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    FMS Senior Member

    Reading over it quickly, people have put thought into Jeff F.'s questions.

    If the SOR (statement of requirements) is to build a paddlewheel boat no matter how well or poorly it performs, at any cost, then I would agree with you.

    If the SOR is to build a boat that won't get stuck in the mud, and cost, labor, and likelihood of success are factors, then it's worth considering other options before starting.

    Two things were written on page 2 and 3:

    and
    These don't mean Jeff F. can't build a paddlewheeler. I do conclude money is a factor, there could be health costs greater than the average boatbuilder would have to deal with, and from the line drawings and question on the first page, this is not an experienced boatbuilder who has spent 20 years considering all the possible solutions already.
    Therefore, it's advisable to verify the first idea is the best way to meet the SOR and then develop it.

    I'm sure your paddlewheel knowledge will be helpful as well.
     
  2. Rurudyne
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    Rurudyne Senior Member

    Good idea about the combined rudder / trolling motor. A number of classic paddlewheel designs featured bow rudders to help maneuvering and, though use may be tricky, it might be a possible additional implementation of your idea.

    I do seem to recall offering links on paddlewheel design.
     
  3. phrogjlf@yahoo
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    phrogjlf@yahoo JL Frusha

    Thank you! Guess I didn't get the last few pages of replies, which usually means you don't get ANY more replies, until you check it again..., but I got one, today.

    Things are on hold. Seems every time I get to move 6 in forward, it is immediately followed by 6 ft back. Latest trial was an auto wreck where a bob-tail lost the rear drive-shaft and it came up through the transmission, skidding my oldest daughter (behind the wheel), wife and one son, off into a ditch and onto the cars' side. No major injuries, but damned at the psych issues... Expect to be moving, so won't have river access, for the 'Rose'.

    You're right, the engineers were quite discouraging. Amateurs with software were much more helpful. Life is strange. Been working toward a live-aboard for the moderate depths offshore, in the GoM. Bought an old motorhome, and once the kids are out of the house (youngest is a Senior, this coming year), the budget will take an upward leap, when we're not feeding them, or paying the landlords' mortgage.

    Idea for the GoM is something I've fought with for years. New(er) technology may be the savior, there. Cheap boats are available, but they're... well,... cheap. Besides, it may actually be a commercially feasible product, as well.

    Meh, guess we'll see what happens. The small sternwheeler may be the answer to another part of the equation. Might even be funny, to see something old-school up against next-generation.

    Thanks for the vote of confidence!
    Jeff F.
    Cedar Creek, TX
     
  4. phrogjlf@yahoo
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    phrogjlf@yahoo JL Frusha

    One proposition is to use trolling motors in conjunction with the main rudders, hidden within the decking and ahead of the wheel(s).

    I've never built a boat, but I've been a carpenter. I know more about everything OTHER than hull design. I can follow plans and read blueprints, which is a lot more than most wanna-be's can say.

    'Rose' is still a dream, right now, but she's certainly a dream worth remembering and dreaming again.
     
  5. W4rdk
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    W4rdk New Member

    River Walker

    Check out this boat. It is a paddlewheel. You can find it by googling River Walker Boat a Plans. It's a little larger than you are looking to build, but there plans available. If I recall, the width is what you are looking for, but she's longer. Cutting down the length of a good design should not be big problem with this design, just cut one of two sections right out of the length. I actually hoop to build one 40' long by 10' beam. Basic barge type hull with a upswept aft. I won't use the sponsons even though they will give some added buoyancy. I'll mount the wheel on swing arms to be able to get the correct paddle depth at al times. I plan to have monkey rudders as well as rudders behind the wheel. With four rubbers in the water, I should have adequate control. My power plan is a small three cylinder tractor Diesel engine. About 40hp max driving a hydraulic pump. Hyd motors driving a chain sprocket for the wheel. All hydraulics will be inboard and enclosed so as to prevent any spillage in the event of a hose break. Steering will also be hyd powered, but the cylinder will also be inboard with the connection to the rudders via linkage arms. Planning for an incinerator toilet and an evaporative system for gray water. Shower and sink water will be filtered into a small, 25gal holding/settling tank with a weir for catching particulate matter. From there, it will pumped into a chamber with the engine exhaust running through to heat the water. During a days running, I figure I can evaporate most of the water I'll generate. If that doesn't get rid of it all, I'll just add an oil fired burner to help it along. Good lock with your project. I plan to start building next summer. I'll run the Ohio River system.
     
  6. phrogjlf@yahoo
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    phrogjlf@yahoo JL Frusha

    Not bad, overall, but if I get to build for this river, I need a shallow 'V' and, if there's any chance of it being, or becoming a real sternwheeler, it will have to have the rise to the waterline, at the transom. That does 2 things. It transitions water to the wheel when moving forward and from it moving backward, and it reduces overall drag, which is why everyone kept saying I'm trying to build a speedboat hull, even though the only difference between my needs and a standard sternwheeler is the shallow 'V'. I quit trying to pound that into heads that wouldn't bother to look AT sternwheeler hulls, to even understand what I was describing.
     
  7. Rurudyne
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    Rurudyne Senior Member

    I can't remember if I ever linked to it, but just in case:

    http://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=chi.103525791;view=2up;seq=4;skin=mobile

    One of these designs is for a sternwheeler with a dead rise as you desire. It is called Mud Turtle.

    I'd previously found it on Google Books, and it should still be there, but I can't seem to find it just now. It can be downloaded in PDF format from Google Books though once you've found it.
     
  8. phrogjlf@yahoo
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    phrogjlf@yahoo JL Frusha

    Now that's cool! Have seen folks post similar books. Low deadrise, shallow v, dual stern wheels... Granted, it's probably a modified tractor axle, or something, but it's the bigger picture.

    Thank you very much! Have to finish looking at it later, though. Late and my grandsons' 2nd b-day party is just 12 hours away...

    Later,
    Jeff F.
     
  9. Clyde2001
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    Clyde2001 Junior Member

    Stern-wheelers and Experts.

    You pretty much nailed it on your description of both a workable sternwheeler and the experts who have never built one.

    Most steamboats if not all of the earlier ones were not designed by either Marine Architects or Engineers and they pretty much ran just fine.

    Best advice I could give, having built and run one for 12 years is to look at the old drawings of boats. As long as you don't try to re-invent the wheel, you should have one that works. Stern-wheelers are not for everyone, they are not fast and they take a little getting used to to handle. None are much fun in a wind.

    A good source for info on wheel design and number of buckets etc. is Alan Bates' book Steamboat Cyclopendium. Alan was not only a Architect but was also second mate on the Belle of Louisville. His information is pretty dead on.

    My former boat (by the way, sternwheelers are "BOATS" not "Yachts" for what it is worth) can be found on facebook at "Rafter Clyde II" Capt. Sanders is pretty knowledgeable on sternwheel boats (not being an "Expert" but he started on the Avalon and did run the DQ for quite a few years) he pretty much knows what he is talking about.
     
  10. Rurudyne
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    Rurudyne Senior Member

    You can improve the "none are much fun in the wind" by use of some centerboard or daggerboard for when the water you're in is deep enough though.
     
  11. Clyde2001
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    Clyde2001 Junior Member

    Haven't seen much in the way of centerboards or daggerboards on a riverboat but I will keep looking.
     
  12. phrogjlf@yahoo
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    phrogjlf@yahoo JL Frusha

    Even a shallow 'V' will improve that.

    One major proble I have is the water level fluctuations. We go from a very narrow channel, onto flats and the 'channel' is inconsistent, at best. They don't do a decent job of keeping it cleaned out, but damned if they won't raise hell about people doing anything that might improve access to the river. Got to have an environmental impact assessment and fully engineered plans, before they'll even consider letting someone put even a floating dock in. smgdh

    Probably crap bricks if I anchored a floating picnic table out here, but damned if they aren't interested in me building a small riverboat, for the expected increased tourism value.

    If things change, and we end up with a place around here, I can probably get free ramp access at the LCRA ramp, at the end of our road, simply because I would increase that tourism.

    Later,
    Jeff F.
    Cedar Creek.
     
  13. SamSam
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    SamSam Senior Member

    A guy I was communicating with who had a smaller sternwheel, 28' I think, had a lot of problem with winds so he put two swing down leeboards on it and steering was much improved. It gave a pivot point to the boat when turning and cut down on sideways drift in winds when going straight.
     
  14. fredrosse
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    fredrosse USACE Steam

    Taking Exception

    From phorgjlf's post 17 July 2015: "You're right, the engineers were quite discouraging. Amateurs with software were much more helpful. '

    I have to take exception to your statement. I am an engineer, have been for nearly 50 years, and my day job is Fluids Analysis. My post here on 18 December 2014 is far from discouraging, and I have actually built a paddleboat, so what I said is not armchair speculation.
     

  15. phrogjlf@yahoo
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    phrogjlf@yahoo JL Frusha

    My apologies. There are exceptions, but, in general, I have had problems with several that derive income from their designs, even when some of those very marine architects and engineers have designs, in other threads in this forum, with similar hulls to approximate what I have described, for other design parameters, that quit responding, once I asked about one of their designs, even in PMs, or those other threads, but they actively propose I use something that goes against the things I needed in this hull. Things such as constant suggestions to use pontoon hulls,hulls with pontoon-like outer sections that are deeper than the centreline, which would prevent rocking loose from this muck, hulls with significantly higher water-lines, or giving me sand about how a sternwheeler. or paddlewheeler should have a flat bottom, all the while refusing to acknowledge the silt/clay muck that I have to design around. Some who seem to decide, somewhat arbitrarily, that I need a propeller that would protrude too far below the bottom, when the idea isn't to even HAVE a propeller, etc. Even not answering their web-page email, when approached for the purchase of plans.
     
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