Requesting Small Sternwheeler hull design and analysis help

Discussion in 'Boat Design' started by phrogjlf@yahoo, Nov 18, 2014.

  1. Rurudyne
    Joined: Mar 2014
    Posts: 1,032
    Likes: 18, Points: 38, Legacy Rep: 155
    Location: North Texas

    Rurudyne Senior Member

    It's pretty much the norm for boats without thrusters to have no turning ability when the main propulsion is inactive, isn't it?
     
  2. Clyde2001
    Joined: Feb 2015
    Posts: 14
    Likes: 0, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 10
    Location: Pepin, WI

    Clyde2001 Junior Member

    I would expect so...................
     
  3. fredrosse
    Joined: Jan 2005
    Posts: 303
    Likes: 11, Points: 28, Legacy Rep: 56
    Location: Philadelphia PA

    fredrosse USACE Steam

    Ineffective Rudders

    Definately so, either paddlewheels, propellers, jet drive: no power, virtually no steering available.
     
  4. Rurudyne
    Joined: Mar 2014
    Posts: 1,032
    Likes: 18, Points: 38, Legacy Rep: 155
    Location: North Texas

    Rurudyne Senior Member

    Humorous: like a guy when it comes to her planning the wedding.

    Serious: I hope guys don't think I didn't know that. It's just I misread that earlier post as if it was being implied that was a particular trait of paddlewheels. My bad.
     
  5. Clyde2001
    Joined: Feb 2015
    Posts: 14
    Likes: 0, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 10
    Location: Pepin, WI

    Clyde2001 Junior Member

    Sorry, I wasn't referring to the particular characteristics of all paddle-wheelers, only the stern-wheeler that I had.
    I expect that some displacement hulls, sailboat as an example will respond to the rudder if the hull still has some forward motion, my stern-wheeler, even if still moving would lose completely all steering control without the wheel being under power.
    This definitely made docking with a side wind really exciting. Usually required bringing the boat into the slip under power and then hoping to hell, you could back the wheel enough to get the whole works stopped in time to avoid waking up the neighbors.
     
  6. Clyde2001
    Joined: Feb 2015
    Posts: 14
    Likes: 0, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 10
    Location: Pepin, WI

    Clyde2001 Junior Member

    Fred,
    Really like the looks of your side-wheeler. Did I read that you have twin rudders on her?
    If so is the stern raked? and are the rudders positioned wide?
    Thanks.
     
  7. SamSam
    Joined: Feb 2005
    Posts: 3,566
    Likes: 111, Points: 63, Legacy Rep: 971
    Location: Coastal Georgia

    SamSam Senior Member

    Clyde, I have a picture of what is claimed to be the old 'Clyde' when it still had sidewheels, I'll post it when I get to the other computer. It said it was switched to a sternwheel because with sidewheels it was hard to steer, which seems surprising.
     
  8. Clyde2001
    Joined: Feb 2015
    Posts: 14
    Likes: 0, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 10
    Location: Pepin, WI

    Clyde2001 Junior Member

    Yes, the original Clyde. was built as a side-wheel boat in 1870. Just a single deck, but she did have a nice fancy octagon pilot house. Not sure if she was "stiff-shafted" (both wheels on a common drive) or had independent wheels. When first built, she was designed to be used as a packet, to run the Chippewa River to Eau Claire, Wisconsin but her draft of 18" proved too deep for the Chippewa.

    Towing log rafts was just coming of age then on the Upper Mississippi and the first steamboats to tow rafts were side-wheel boats. The loggers soon found that a stern-wheeler had much more power in 'backing' which was used to steer the rafts around bends. So after one of her numerous sinkings, the Clyde. was lengthened and rebuilt as a sternwheeler, probably around 1880. Another Iowa Iron Works boat, the R.K.Graves was built in 1884 and appears to be almost a twin of the Clyde.

    She was a successful rafter until the end of the lumbering industry on the Upper Mississippi around 1915.
    After that she towed rock for the Corps of Engineers until the 1920s and then was sold south where she worked on the Tennessee River until probably the mid 1940's. By this time, she had been cut down to a single deck with an over-sized pilot house.
    Because of her iron hull, the Clyde. pretty much out-lasted all of her kind.
     
  9. johnhazel
    Joined: Jun 2008
    Posts: 249
    Likes: 4, Points: 18, Legacy Rep: 60
    Location: Michigan

    johnhazel Senior Member

  10. Rurudyne
    Joined: Mar 2014
    Posts: 1,032
    Likes: 18, Points: 38, Legacy Rep: 155
    Location: North Texas

    Rurudyne Senior Member

  11. SamSam
    Joined: Feb 2005
    Posts: 3,566
    Likes: 111, Points: 63, Legacy Rep: 971
    Location: Coastal Georgia

    SamSam Senior Member

    I believe this must the original Clyde. If it was 'very hard to steer', I'd think it must have been 'stiff-shafted', as independent wheels would seem to be able spin the boat around in place. But, those wheels do seem to be farther aft than usual and that would effect their turning ability somewhat. But, too, and also, to have independent wheels would probably require two separate engines and drive trains and would be expensive and complicated for the time and place. All this is just guesses on my part.

    Those plows are huge, I wonder if they were for busting up original prairie. It's amazing how recently all that area was settled.

    The
    must be the 'flanking' maneuver they developed. My understanding of it was, with a long load they were pushing, they couldn't turn quick enough to get around the bends, so someone came up with the plan of charging full speed into the bend and then throwing the sternwheel into reverse while also reversing the rudders (which were forward of the sternwheel). The inertia of the load kept the whole works going forward while the stern end of the load was kicked around by the sternwheel and rudders, kind of pivoting around the bow. When they were lined up correctly for the bend, the sternwheel was put in forward, the rudders straightened up and away they went.

    The WTHOPKINS alongside the Clyde must be one of those fuel barges they picked up on the run and towed alongside, instead of stopping and loading all the wood on the Clyde itself, and then when it was empty they'd exchange it for a full one. Kind of like the propane tank exchange at grocery, hardware etc stores.

    http://digicoll.library.wisc.edu/We...tml:bad=error/badfetch.html&entityimageSize=l

    The above link times out but if you google UW La Crosse Historic Steamboat Photographs , you'll get there.


    [​IMG]


    Clyde (Rafter, 1870-1875)Description: BOAT DESCRIPTION: Sidewheel
    BOAT TYPE: Rafter/Towboat
    BUILT: Dubuque, Iowa by Iowa Iron Works, 1870
    BECAME: Clyde (Sternwheel rafter) in 1875
    OWNERS: 1870: Ingram and Kennedy; 1872: Hugh Douglas became part owner
    OFFICERS & CREW: 1870: Hugh Douglas (commander), Louis Fulton (pilot), S. Fuller (engineer), Joseph Fuller (engineer); Captain Richard Dixon (master)
    RIVERS: Mississippi River; Chippewa River
    OTHER INFORMATION: Ways - T0450; The sidewheel Clyde was the first iron hull towboat. She was a good pusher and quite fast when running light but very hard to steer. She ran lumber from Chippewa to Hannibal, Missouri and St. Louis, Missouri. There were but three sidewheeler's built for raft work. She was redesigned in 1875 as the sternwheel Clyde
     
  12. Rurudyne
    Joined: Mar 2014
    Posts: 1,032
    Likes: 18, Points: 38, Legacy Rep: 155
    Location: North Texas

    Rurudyne Senior Member

    SamSam, I wonder if old paddlewheel pilots thought women should find those charge in and throw around maneuvers daring, macho and sexy the same way Clarkson of Top Gear fame thinks gals love hand-brake turns?

    ps: isn't the sidewheel towards the back sometimes called a Quarterwheel?
     
  13. SamSam
    Joined: Feb 2005
    Posts: 3,566
    Likes: 111, Points: 63, Legacy Rep: 971
    Location: Coastal Georgia

    SamSam Senior Member

    I can't see why the women wouldn't just swoon in heaps every time.

    Quarterwheel sounds like it describes it perfectly. I like the looks of them and imagine they turned pretty well with independent wheels.
     
  14. Clyde2001
    Joined: Feb 2015
    Posts: 14
    Likes: 0, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 10
    Location: Pepin, WI

    Clyde2001 Junior Member

    Apparently the wheel location on the Clyde. was pretty much typical for smaller side-wheelers on the Chippewa and Upper Miss.
    Also the barge alongside the Clyde was probably built at Dubuque as she carries the same name as the man who originally drew the Clyde for Roush & Dean (later Iowa Iron Works, later Dubuque Boiler Works). William Hopkins, a Scot, he supposedly named the Clyde. after the river Clyde. in his home country.
    Typically fuel flats for Upper Mississippi boats were just that, rough built scow barges built of local timber, the barge pictured had a model bow.
     

  15. W4rdk
    Joined: Jul 2015
    Posts: 2
    Likes: 0, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 10
    Location: Union, ky

    W4rdk New Member

    Well, I must say that this whole discussion string thoroughly disappointed me about this site. I too came here hoping for some design help for a stern wheel boat. The gentleman who started this string asked for this help, but what he got was a thousand and one reasons not to do what he wanted to accomplish rather than help. Obviously a paddlewheel is not the most efficient nor practical boat design, as all you nautical engineers have clearly explained. Thank goodness it wasn't engineers who originally designed these lovely old boats, but people who had a very practical need to put a boat on a river and propel it with a mechanical system they could work with. Please gentlemen, offer some practical advise for this fellow such as google River Walker Paddlewheel boat. This guy wants a shallow draft boat that won't get stuck in the mud. I agree that many of his ideas are off kilter, but there are several good plans for small paddlewheel boats out there that have proven to be quite successful. Here are dome things I have discovered in my quest for a home built paddlewheel. Forget your split wheel idea. It is very difficult to control the boat with any wind. I think your trolling motor idea has some merit though for steering. Perhaps making your trolling motor integral to two rudders tucked in between your wheel and a sloped transom. You could also use four rudders for improved steerage. Two in front, and two behind your wheel

    In this case, the integral trolling motors should probably be on the rudders behind the wheel. As for power transmission, use chain drives. This will allow you to play with the power ratio for optimum wheel speed simply by changing your drive sprocket and adding or deleting a few links. For power source, consider a small Diesel engine. No carburetor , no fuel vapor problem.

    Good luck. Many of the people who built early paddlewheel boats were very successful, but they got there by trial and error, they should be your source of knowledge. I apologize to the many engineers whom I have just offended. I know you are intelligent guys with a great education, but your training is just not relevant to this guys problem. Like myself, I'm sure he knows that what he wants to build is not necessarily practical for river transportation, fuel efficiency, or speed. What he wants is a boat that won't get stuck in the mud. Let's try to help him out.

    Now, if I ever want to build an Americas Cup Racer, a hydrofoil, or a fuel efficient long distance sailing yacht, you guys are definitely going to get the Job.
     
Loading...
Forum posts represent the experience, opinion, and view of individual users. Boat Design Net does not necessarily endorse nor share the view of each individual post.
When making potentially dangerous or financial decisions, always employ and consult appropriate professionals. Your circumstances or experience may be different.