Removing Fiberglass (new to forum)

Discussion in 'Wooden Boat Building and Restoration' started by Flipsdream, Oct 10, 2011.

  1. PAR
    Joined: Nov 2003
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    PAR Yacht Designer/Builder

    A novice wouldn't be able to correct these hull distortions, without assistance from a professional. Just knowing what to look for, aside from how to correct them, is daunting enough for the beginner.

    This link > http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Appendix:Glossary_of_nautical_terms#H < might be of some help, though I noticed hook wasn't listed. It's likely several if not many of the terms are slightly or wholly incorrect, but for your uses, it'll be fine.

    Yellow cedar is fine for much of the boat and is a fine planking material. The structural elements are likely hardwoods, with white oak and mahogany being common. Douglas fir should also be available to you and works well for the softwood locations. Yellow cedar is a great boat building lumber, except when it comes to paint adhesion, though I do have a few tricks that can improve this, this species is notorious for spitting off paint, fairly readily.

    The yellow cedar now being harvested by the sawyer you talked to, will not be ready for use on your boat for at least a year, possably longer, depending on the thickness of the "lifts" he mills. Generally, you'll want naturally seasoned stock, which can take some time. You can cut this stabilization period by as much as 2/3's with a solar kiln, which is fairly easy to make, with little money.

    You'll need to contact a boat carpenter and have him look the old gal over. He can point you in the right direction, maybe give you clues on how to proceed. Removing hooks, hogs and other hull distortions isn't for the faint of heart. Quite often things break in the process and it takes quite a while, if you attempt to work "with" the structure (always best), rather then force things back, which usually just makes the boat weaker in that general area. In short, this is a can of worms that the carpenter will probably try to talk you out of. A determined person can muddle through, but you'll surely need some guidance.
     
  2. Flipsdream
    Joined: Oct 2011
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    Location: Alaska

    Flipsdream Junior Member

    Thank you Mr. Par. I expected to put the wood in my heated garage to season it. Our winters are long, the humidity is low and the heater keeps the temp around fifty degrees.

    The sawyer did mention that he might already have adequate seasoned lumber available, depending on the amount and dimension I require.

    From you most recent comments, it seems that the only thing I would want the Alaska Cedar for is planking? If this is the case, then my bet is he does already have adequate material for that section.

    What would your recommendation be for rub strake, keel and ribs?

    I'll see if I can find a boat carpenter close by. The industry here has moved sharply to aluminum but I have met a person or two that may be qualified.

    I am confident that I can source white oak, mahogany and doug fir here locally but would feel more confident with a person such as yourself advising me on which to use.

    Regards,

    mikensherry
     
  3. rwatson
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    rwatson Senior Member

    Half an inch is well within tolerance - it could have been there from new. You will need to keep it the same or less while you play with the hull.

    The Hog is basically the keel that the planks are fastened too
    good pictures at
    http://haddockboat.wordpress.com/category/english/diary/keel-hog-stem-and-sternpost/

    The term 'hogged' means that the keel has distorted, either bent up or down at either end, or horizontally (port or starboard), which means a poor shape for going through the water, and/or the plank closest to the keel will have a big gap, and it, and the whole hull could have been pulled out of alignment when the 'hog' ( or inner keel ) has distorted.

    Pars direct comments come from the huge amount of work it is to re-build a hull which has a distorted keel. It obviously affects the whole boats shape, and removing and re-shaping or replacing it is worse than building a new boat. This level of re-build is usually only taken if the craft is substantial and has a lot of other hull and topsides worth saving.

    Once you have the bottom keel removed, you can run a string line along the inner keel, and see if you can detect any left to right bend, or a hollow in the centre of the keel.

    Par will have better eyes than me,but I cant spot any obvious hull deformity in the photos supplied. You will know for sure once you can see the clean hull and do some measuring.

    If you can, do as he suggests and get an experienced boatbuilder or two to look it over, they will probably be able to provide some great info and advice. It would be worth paying for their time just to get them to inspect it and have a chat about the options. It will be a great investment.
     
  4. Flipsdream
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    Flipsdream Junior Member

    Thank you so much Mr. Watson. Ok.... then we'll continue removing the back seat to get the inner transom shots, then flip her over and remove the outer keel.

    I have the utmost respect for you and Mr.Par's advice, not to mention the gift of time to share you've both given us. Having said that, I did wonder if my poor photographic skill could have affected her appearance and I'll try to get some straight references to compare her lines with.

    Kindest personal regards,

    mikensherry
     
  5. Pericles
    Joined: Sep 2006
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    Pericles Senior Member

    Flipsdream,

    Your project boat looks ---------- interesting! I also entertained the notion of a similar restoration earlier this year, but decided life is too short.

    In your situation there is one other method you could consider. It may be anathema to dyed-in-the-wool wooden boat purists, but the hull could serve as a mould for a cold moulded strip built replica. Before you dismiss this option out of hand, invest $22 and purchase Sam Devlin's book.

    http://store.devlinboat.com/devlinsboatbuilding.aspx

    You would end up with a light monocoque hull like a Czarinna.

    http://www.devlinboat.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemId=2380

    Best of luck.
     

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  6. rwatson
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    rwatson Senior Member

    Good suggestion Pericles. Once the hull was made fixed, and straightened up, it would make a great mould for a strip or diagonal skinned hull - the shape being already there.

    It would be half the work of repairing the original, while creating a new hull that would last for many, many years without major repairs.
     
  7. Flipsdream
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    Flipsdream Junior Member

    Thanks again Mr. Pericles (I sure admired your work on the Parthenon :eek:) ) and Mr. Watson.

    I am confused as to why or what the difference is between that which you refer to as a cold mould and me replacing ever piece of wood in this boat?

    She's only a hair over 15' long and it just doesn't seem to be an enormous project to me to replace her members one at a time.

    Now, I will say I am somewhat vexed at the notion that I'm going to build some sort of frame to place inside her to help her hold her form, somehow attach that form to her, and then later take it out.

    My vexation comes from the notion that there are only three ways I can envision making such an attachment: nail, screw or glue. Nail or screw leaves holes in the strips that then have to be repaired or reused? And I can't imagine pulling out a glued support without an inordinate amount of destruction, unless maybe some sort of solvent in involved.

    Finally, what is the method from transposing the form of the rib onto the material to construct a support form, a large compass?

    Thank you all for putting up with my naivete.

    Best,

    mikensherry
     
  8. Flipsdream
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    Flipsdream Junior Member

    Transom, broken ribs and additional pictures

    Many thanks to those of you willing to share your significant knowledge regarding our efforts to breath life back into this little boat.

    I've taken the requested pictures of the inside view of the transom after we removed her back seat.

    The significant damage on the port side aft is where I actually broke and sawed out largely rotted strips to get a close look at what they were.

    The stressed and broken ribs I imagine are the issues Mr. Par speaks of when he cites her woes. I just wonder if she was so rotten in the transom area there, and then suffered some sort of catastrophic incident, that it split and broke the ribs, but what am I other than a would be fiction writer? :eek:)

    Finally, and of real interest to me are the planks that form the center of the boat that can be seen joining the transom. Hopefully one can see that those two planks (at least two) are much wider than the majority of the other strips.

    I also am yet to see any screws or other penetrations that would seem to connect the keel to those center bottom strips, other than the large bolts that can be seen in the early bow pictures.

    Once again thank you all for your kind and generous help. I'm going to try to attach the pictures right here.

    Update, after considerable effort, I was able to attach only one of the pictures directly to this post. I am assuming the file size limitations are cumulative? So, I'll be adding the balance of the photos mentioned herein to the gallery area.

    Best,

    mikensherry
     

    Attached Files:

  9. Pericles
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    Pericles Senior Member

  10. Flipsdream
    Joined: Oct 2011
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    Flipsdream Junior Member

    Thanks Mr. Pericles. Call me names but with each passing moment I (we) become more resolute to rebuild the boat we have.

    I looked at your links and do appreciate them but, I just am not interested in a stitch and glue, or plywood boat. (although I am mulling over the notion of sandwiching a layer of marine plywood into her new transom.

    I read some of the sistering lapstrake thread and I like Mr. Par's advice which I'll paraphrase as "tear it all out and put in the new stuff". :eek:)

    Please don't give up on me, although old I may still be able to learn a new trick.

    Best,

    mikensherry
     
  11. rwatson
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    rwatson Senior Member

    you get an 'A' for persistance Mr MS

    The appeal of constructing a new hull over the old hull is that you don't have to pull the old hull apart, and potentially distort the entire project.

    In any event, you will have to build and install a strongback for the existing hull, and fasten the hull to the strongback

    Then you have three options :-

    Plan A -
    unscrew every rusty, perhaps fragile and broken screw, create a new plank the same shape, screw it back onto a rib that may have to be replaced itself, on a keel that may have to be replaced, joined to Stem that may have to be replaced, and a Transom, that may have to be replaced.

    Plan B - shore up the hull with temporary hull so it is straight and level. Cut new wood shapes and use the old hull as the mould for the new timber.

    Plan C - re-inforce the outer hull with Epoxy and Glass, so you can replace the ribs and other wooden interior components without disturbing the overall structure , and varnish or paint the insides.

    With option B, you do away with all the removal and replacement work.

    What I and the others are saying, is that the level of skill you will need to restore the boat, is higher than the level of skill it would take to build a new one - and half the effort.

    I have looked very carefully at the photos, and you have done a great job of cleaning and displaying the wood. The 'crunch' will be when you have to start pulling the components apart, while retaining the shape of the other components, while you run the risk of splitting and breaking the rotten components so that you cannot use them as patterns for the replacement bits.

    I and the others have seen many projects that fell apart as repairs were attempted, to the extent that without the original plans, it was just impossible to put the boat back in any kind of acceptable shape once major components were removed.

    In any case, its your decision - and your time and money. The least it will be is a wonderful 'learning experience'. Good luck
     
  12. Flipsdream
    Joined: Oct 2011
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    Flipsdream Junior Member

    Ok, time, sleep and good advice have prevailed. I'll do minimal repairs here (possibly to include shortening the over all boat length by 2 inches so as to not have to make so many strip splices repairing the majority of the rot at the transom.

    And......... fiberglass the boat. :)

    I've been able to source white oak (I hope; won't really know until I see it) and Alaska Cedar. We hope to sell the repaired fiberglassed boat and build our own fishing boat from scratch.

    Thanks all,

    mikensherry
     
  13. rwatson
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    rwatson Senior Member

    Wow - you have just entered the Boat Forum book of records - I can think of many posts where a new 'boater' actually thought the job out carefully, and decided to take the 'optimum build' decision.

    And some genius at work there - move the transom forward to miss the rotten bits. Was this your own idea ? I cant see it causing any problems on this particular boat, and it will save quite a bit of work.

    One useful method that I have found useful when trying to make matching templates ( like say a new transom shape ) - roughly cut out a piece of old plywood or mdf, that is at least 6 inches too small all round, then clamp it sort of centrally. Then get a lot of short bits of timber ( say 6" x 1 inch x 1/4 " ) or even short bits of mdf or ply, and use the hot glue gun to stick them to the the bigger bit of plywood, so that they are just touching the surface you want to meet.
    You end up with a template that is very accurate to cut the good bit of plywood from.

    Note that, if you use Epoxy ( and you *must* use epoxy ) and 'thickeners' to join things like transoms etc, you dont want a perfect match, as having a bit of a gap actually allows the epoxy to contribute a lot more strength to the affair.

    Fixing up an old boat will give you a chance to get a feel for the new boat, you will learn lots of useful things, that will make the next build that much easier.

    Heck, you will probably want to keep the old gal to do a bit of fishing while you finish the next project. You cant have too many boats !

    Good luck, and have a lot of fun.
     
  14. rwatson
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    rwatson Senior Member

    Oh - and a PS

    You will probably want to replace some of the ribs. Traditionally, if the curve is too tight for the timber, they steamed the wood until it was soft enough to take the curve.

    Since you may not want to be so purist for this boat, there is another great trick to get curved wood into place without it snapping.

    Cut out say half a dozen timber strips for the ribs, and epoxy some 6oz fibreglass to one side only.

    When you bend the wood into the curve, make sure the glassed side meets the hull.
    eg
    http://greencanoe.weebly.com/more-inside-stories.html

    Once the epoxy is cured, you will be able to apply a tremendous amount of curve to the rib without it breaking, and because the glassed side is hidden, the rib still looks like the genuine wooden item.
     

  15. Flipsdream
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    Flipsdream Junior Member

    Mr. Watson, after investing about an hour or so in unscrewing the screws or un-nailing the nails that held the ribbing to the transom, it became apparent to me that I'd at best have to try and drill the heads off the fasteners, whichever type they were. And then still try and extract them while preserving as much ribbing as possible.

    I was losing so much material and making such little progress that I also realized there would be virtually no strips left unaffected in that area. Not liking the notion of splicing strips it seemed logical to me to simply cut them off around the transom and have mostly sound ribbing to attach to a new transom.

    I completely understand your other advice and regarding a transom template which also seems perfectly logical. How what size gap do you recommend I build into the transom replacement? I also understand the greencanoe rib example and thank for that as well.

    I'm sure we'll need plenty more advice moving forward and appreciate your perseverance letting us come around to a hopefully reasonable rebuild.

    Thanks,

    mikensherry
     
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