recommend me a loftsman

Discussion in 'Boat Design' started by peterroderick00, Sep 7, 2013.

  1. Mr Efficiency
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    Mr Efficiency Senior Member

    He says he wants to go fast offshore in a light aluminium powerboat. It gets down to how much discomfort he is prepared to tolerate, or how much money to spend, or both ! :p
     
  2. peterroderick00
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    peterroderick00 Junior Member

    that's what I thought ...I just figured those guys wouldn't take too kindly to me putting a straight edge on theyre keel to find out...I can think of a few ways to "steal " a little camber down the keel..i even think I can do it & keep a MOSTLY developable shape over the majority of the bottom...& im equally sure those guys are movin fast enough that a following sea effectively becomes a head sea no matter what & as far as porpoising..theyre outta the water as much as theyre in it so im wondering how much it really matters??..I guess that would depend on your list of needs or wants with the architect...if im successful with the build & it performs well enough to gain anybodys attention I`d like to be able to offer it as a build for hire . I figure if I pull it off & the lightweight approach has any merit ill already have enough info on ride performance to explain it to my architect & he can dumb it down from there (or not ) to suit a customers needs or wants...maybe to a modified vee of some sort or something like that..i figure you have to pay the guy every time you build the hull he designed anyway.
     
  3. Mr Efficiency
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    Mr Efficiency Senior Member

    The equation of light weight, high speed, ride comfort, and low outlay doesn't add up, unless you are in a very quiet backwater, I'm afraid, not offshore. I'd only be guessing, but I suspect the slight rocker in the fast offshore boats is intended to reduce the risk of "stuffing", and to lessen the wash-off in speed from less dangerous ploughing through waves.
     
  4. peterroderick00
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    peterroderick00 Junior Member

    you're right..my questions mighta had a little too much spread to get any real answers there..the requirements ill have will be speed based only my plan is to build it ..find a suitable class to race it in to attempt to do well ,sparking some interest in aluminum hulls for offshore performance..if I can fair acceptably in that arena I`d like to be able to have a relationship with my architect in where I could report the performance findings in the built hull & have him modify that bottom design to suit a customers SOR..as you have to pay your architect for every boat he`s designed it seems a sure bet that provided you paid him fairly & didn't ask for the impossible he might even enjoy working with you if another build popped up in modifying that bottom as the rest of the boat would be in his files already & theres more work to be had (maybe even enjoyed) on every hull produced ...I feel like an architect will afford me less money spent in the end than trial & error would..hence forth my worries on WHICH architect...maybe all architects can do the same thing for me & maybe not ??..which leads me back to a part of my original question ..do I need an architect that specializes in performance??..& I ask out of SHEER IGNORANCE..im leaning toward thinking that if software exists to do the number crunching most guys are gonna come back with close to the same answers ..but experience in life tells me that just because somebody holds the same title as the next guy in life don't mean much...my biggest fear is getting a guy that aint much smarter than me..left on my own I`d go ask a buddy at a marina to let me make a template of an existing performance hull to get a sensible starting point & modify thru scaling & ratio scaling...& wind up with my chines 2 feet outta the water at rest (on accounta the weight difference)....then I`d be a theif ..look like a ******* AND be broke...respectfully..how do I avoid that same outcome in choosing an architect with the lack of experience im stuck with
     
  5. peterroderick00
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    peterroderick00 Junior Member

    I guess I threw ride comfort overboard the day I started wanting to go fast..i`ll trade all the slop to get it glued to the water as best I can from medium to relatively high speeds..i assumed I`d need a bit of that "rocker" but cant find any info on it anywhere..i cant even see how much of it there is or where it starts & stops in pics ...that's a tough one
     
  6. peterroderick00
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    peterroderick00 Junior Member

    no more or less than the next guy I guess?..I've spent a LITTLE time in a couple of em as a passenger & it seemed the faster they went the easier the ride got....ive done 60 out front& it seemed hairy enough but not untolerable..maybe for every 10 mph up you go it gets 10x worse ??..I figure worse to worst it wont be the first lesson I`ve hadda learn the hard way..ITSA GOOD THING IM DUMB!!! ..if I was even a LITTLE smarter all my failures mighta stung haha..I don't guess this venture oughtta be any different
     
  7. Mr Efficiency
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    Mr Efficiency Senior Member

    I wouldn't think rocker should figure in your plans, but staying safe should ! If you are contemplating 60 mph plus on open water, any deficiencies in design may be revealed in spectacular fashion. Whatever you do, run the plans by experienced designers before proceeding.
     
  8. Ad Hoc
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    Ad Hoc Naval Architect

    So..what is the max length of boat, max beam, max draft, max speed, 6 knots or 60knots, 6 crew or 60 passengers, 6 hours endurance or 60 days endurance, 6nm range or 6000nm range, air conditioning, galley, heads, bunks, etc etc, max budget (most important)..the list is endless. BUT, it is YOUR list. Until you have a decent SOR, you’ll for ever be chasing your own tail.

    Ask what type of boats they design and ask to see previous examples that have been successfully built. Beyond that, there is little else you can do other than word of mouth.

    But the 2 I previously noted are suitable experienced and knowledgeable in this small craft field for you. I would suggest you drop either of them a PM and take it from there. Failing that, try searching the SNAME website for designers in your area.
     
  9. Mr Efficiency
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    Mr Efficiency Senior Member

    This thread is a bit of a misnomer, the request for a loftsman implies a lines plan that has been finalised, which is apparently far from the case.
     
  10. PAR
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    PAR Yacht Designer/Builder

    Agreed, this appears to be a need for a full up offshore design, which begs the previously asked question - what's the SOR say.
     
  11. peterroderick00
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    peterroderick00 Junior Member

    32`in length with 8`beam,referred to as a salon racer or a poker run boat. theyre day boats for recreation that usually hold around 400 gals. of fuel, the amenities will vary in the future, but as of now its a shell that's holds a driveline with 2 seats across the cockpit & a simple v berth with little or no headroom with 2 very non economical I/o mercruiser type engines & bravo drives.. very simple. very flashy, and expected to do nothing more than to make the owner look cool for status.. the status has to be earned through a fast hull that looks cool ...probably not too flattering to the trawler or aft cabin types, but it has a place & I`d like to do a good job on mine in every aspect from design to craftsmanship & I appreciate all the help you've given me & I do intend to contact the 2 gentlemen you recommended & thanks again
     
  12. PAR
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    PAR Yacht Designer/Builder

    Poker run boats are little more than down sized offshore racers, with some minimal accommodations tossed in and around the wet bar. These can run in the 60's, but high end products oven exceed 100 MPH. I recently designed a 90+ MPH 30'er that doing well.

    Simply put, you need a set of plans, period. At these speeds you don't screw up, without people getting hurt or worse. If you're interested in a boat that looks like one of these, but is limited to 60 MPH or less, you might have a shot of "tinkering" with a self design, but again, trip one at 60 and it's going to hurt someone.

    Most of these boats are available as stock designs from the major players in the industry. They'll be intended for 'glass, but a conversion would be possible. I have a set of stock plans for a 33' 6" tunnel hull, designed to run twin 200 HP - 225 HP (a couple of small blocks) I/O's, with a 60 - 63 MPH top end. It has modest accommodations (V berth, convertible settee, dinky galley, etc.), sleeping 4, 200 gallons fuel, about 5,500 pounds displacement (foam composite), 5,400 pounds displacement (molded) and an 8'5" beam, so it's trailerable.

    Then of course you could just build an aluminum version of the Bandido (Glen-L) a 30' x 8', 2.5 ton boat of similar accommodation, except as a 22 degree deep V.

    [​IMG]

    Naturally, you'll need to have the plans converted to aluminum.
     
  13. peterroderick00
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    peterroderick00 Junior Member

    back to who you can believe.. theres a book by a loftsman on aluminum construction I bought before I built my first aluminum boat .. its possible im misquoting or not remembering the whole story but I remember it saying the loftsman is usually the most senior & knowledgable man involved in a boat build..of course..that guy was a loftsman ..& whuddoo I know? haha..in any case it looks like PAR just found the soloution .. or atleast A soloution & he was recommended & backed up by HOC (naval architect) .. the glen l bandido is about the spitting image of my drawing ...& I always said I love to be the dumbest guy in any given room at any given time...cause if your the smartest one there ..what could you possibly learn?..
     
  14. peterroderick00
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    peterroderick00 Junior Member

    i think im sending my messages to peoples personal email insteada keeping them within the forum.. if i have i apologize im about as savvy on computers as i am on the theory of astro physics...anyway i think this glen l bandido is a perfect match & you obviously understand what im after & all my concerns, next question can you do it for me ? & will you do it for me
     

  15. PAR
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    PAR Yacht Designer/Builder

    Yes, the loftsmen on the shop floor was usually the most senior of the staff. You need to have some skills to do it right, not to mention pull templates, make adjustments, reconcile conflicts, etc. They usually knew somewhat about design, though not necessarily about structure, just shapes. A good loftsmen could make a fast boat faster, but more often than not, a loftsmen would make a fast boat slower, as they incorporated their own brand of "special tricks" into the provided shapes. I know of many yachts, lofted by some well skilled old schooler, that made personal "adjustments" that dramatically altered the abilities of the boat.

    Simply, put, a good loftsmen will reproduce the lines acutely, meticulously and not interject his personal design decisions.

    I've received your email Peter and will reply shortly.
     
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