Raised Helm Deck for Inlet Surf Running Idea

Discussion in 'Boat Design' started by DouglasEagleson, Mar 9, 2016.

  1. TANSL
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    TANSL Senior Member

    Gonzo, could you explain your question a little better ?. I can not find any sense, probably because of my poor language proficiency. Thanks.
     
  2. PAR
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    PAR Yacht Designer/Builder

    TANSL, the OP on this thread admits to little to no engineering experience, but want's to engineer something outside the usual route and based on questionable suppositions, which Gonzo was "teasing" about (my assumption).
     
  3. TANSL
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    TANSL Senior Member

    I can not guess what Gozo want to do because I understand nothing of his post. I do not know if that ("eloquence safety factor"), in English, means something, I do not understand it.
    I also see no reason for Gonzo, precisely, make fun of someone for lack of technical knowledge. But here I am sure that Gonzalo has not sought to make fun of anyone.
     
  4. PAR
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    PAR Yacht Designer/Builder

    This guy has had some pretty wild opinions and concepts, well outside the acceptable norms of engineering and understanding of the industry. I too have poked fun at him, mostly for his insistence about previously made absurd comments, such as the force 5 monster storms, he seems to have experienced or suggests he knows something about.
     
  5. TANSL
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    TANSL Senior Member

    Well, in this forum, no one can avoid to say, at any time, nonsense. The best minds ever mess up and many, many times, we launched opinions or give advice without having sufficient knowledge. And that's not the worst. The worst is that very few recognize.
     
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2016
  6. PAR
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    PAR Yacht Designer/Builder

    It's one thing to make a mistake, but it's wholly another thing to blantely suggest and staunchly defend, a clearly and easily proven, flawed position. For example (again) this poster thinks that wild, horrendous, force 5 storms (Beaufort scale) pop up, unpredictably and this is what caused the difficulties, in the 1979 Fastnet. He attempted to defend this insistence, in spite of the availability of a quick Google search, on both Fastnet '79 or the Beaufort scale. I've been in the winds encountered in that race and they weren't remotely close to the gentle breeze of a force 5. I also know survivors of that race and his exaggerated suggestion of total carnage, simply don't add up to the known facts.

    Simply put, once some disagreement come to the post, he could have looked up the race and Beaufort and quickly realized he misspoke or mis-remembered things. Instead he defended with spurious comments about wild down bursts, etc., in force 5 storms. Personally, I've never seen or heard of a force 5 storm, but if I was called on my accuracy, the first thing I'd do is verify my assertions, through an outside source, because as you and I both know, I'm not always right either.
     
  7. DouglasEagleson
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    DouglasEagleson Junior Member

    They are called Force 5 because the highest observed wind is Force 5. A warning that a breeze can signify a no survive to tell the tail a storm is coming.
     
  8. PAR
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    PAR Yacht Designer/Builder

    Ooooooh, a 17 knot wind, with an occasional gust, will scare the crap out of any sailor.
     
  9. gonzo
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    gonzo Senior Member

    He probably got his sea experience at Sea World
     
  10. PAR
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    PAR Yacht Designer/Builder

    The day before a hurricane hits, most wouldn't see the signs and winds can be quite calm. 1/2 hour before a hurricane hits, even the most foolish recognizes the crap is about to hit the fan. The day before a hurricane lands, the seasoned skipper has noted the barometer dropping like a stone, so he's pretty confident the next day the crap will hit the fan, unless he's like you.

    Most seasoned skippers (and farmers BTW) learn to read the weather and their instruments. I've never been surprised, though have been amazed by an approaching storm's speed. I've seen plenty of down bursts and water spouts and never any in force 5 winds. This isn't conjecture, maybe you need to do some reading, as it's absolutely astounding you continue with ridiculous conjecture, instead of researching the facts.

    Simply put, instead of wasting our time with absurdities, do some leg work and tell us about these wild instances of force 5 storms. There has to be a cataloged storm as you've described over at NOAA, they keep everything.
     
  11. tom28571
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    tom28571 Senior Member

    TANSL,

    I think the post #52 of Douglas should give you some idea of the difficulty that PAR and others have had in dealing with this issue. To me, its pretty clear that Douglas is saying Force 5 Storm when he means Category 5 Hurricane. He has been corrected on that several times but refuses to change his wording. Words are just words but they either convey correct meaning or they do not. Category 5 hurricane wind is truly fierce wind but never "suddenly appears".

    On the other hand, the OP may be a robot sent to mess with our forumites.

    I'm sure it is just a language issue but I have no idea what your first sentence means. In the context of the rest of your post, I think I do know what you intend but would not bet on it.
     
  12. DouglasEagleson
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    DouglasEagleson Junior Member

    I did work at Sea World once. The killer whale was getting taunted by people on the front row. His act was to jump up vertical, look at the crowd, then splash down getting water on the front rows.

    Verbal words are understandable to very intelligent mammals that they are. I had to sit there and observe this sighting issue. And he was scoping the route out of the tank to possibly go there to educate people. These whale are at home going up onto shores to get seals.

    So I got the taunting stopped by a general announcement before the act. He liked to be waved at so waving at him was encouraged.

    I had to figure out sea lions one time also elsewhere.
     
  13. DouglasEagleson
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    DouglasEagleson Junior Member

    About the term Force 5. Why does my term usage alter the factual. I am concerned about sea.

    Here is the demanded class of vessel in my world of 30 foot waves as commonplace. At thirty foot you can expect a full thirty foot breaker.

    Take a atkin or mason "Tahiti" design. Raise the freeboard by 2 foot at a minimum. This eliminates a Davy Jones event almost. Put in emergency high rate pumps to clear a half flooded interior. This eliminates a true panic evacuation. Sitting in the "locker" panics. So have a pump suitable.

    Put the rudder. on a skeg with a spare for the stern.

    Put in fuel for a half motor trip across the Atlantic. Always use the northern route.

    Put in a interlocked hatch type of sealable pilot house. Put water tanks in the forfoot part of the bilge to double hull at the hull-sea container collision point. Loosing a tank should be handleable.

    And 1 and 3/4 inch hull thickness. The wiki has the photos of the seas to design for.
    Why do you refuse to design for the true seas?

    A low pressure system is something squallable. In the usa we have the whole midwest on emergency radio alerts system because of weather.

    A low can house the cyclone type of tornado. This is reality. Why not react. There can be small tornados front large low or otherwise.

    1-3/4 fiberglass cabin deck and hull is an obvious conclusion necessary. If you are in thirty foot waves why not have to be in a pilot house so you don't have to hold your breath so long?
     
  14. gonzo
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    gonzo Senior Member

    Thirty foot waves are hardly survival conditions; just a strong gale. The scantlings you propose are meaningless unless you make them part of a design. Is this a ridiculously heavy 40 footer or a 200 footer? Raising the freeboard by 2 feet is another ridiculous proposition. Get off the potty and go sailing. Maybe you'll be so scared that you'll never get any actual experience. Otherwise, you will see the nonsense of much of what you post. Also, made-up words, bad grammar and spelling are not conducive to anyone understanding. The red squiggly lines you see under most of what you write mean "fix me, I'm wrong".
     

  15. PAR
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    PAR Yacht Designer/Builder

    Force 5 condisions would never produce a 30' wave, no matter how long the time frame or fetch.

    Another important factor to consider is "speak what you know". You speculations about pilot cutter hull forms and suggested modifications are ridiculous and completely unnecessary. Your concepts about the route are equally as absurd. I've crossed the northern Atlantic twice, once solo and the mid Atlantic 3 times, 1 once solo and I can't imagine why anyone would consider on the northern route, adding thousands of miles to a trip. If I leave my Florida base at Daytona, why in the hell would I want to take a northern route to Med?

    Weather is predictable, particularly now. We prepare for it and assuming a reasonable craft and skipper, no reason any route couldn't be utilized for an Atlantic crossing.

    Ditto the mandatory pilothouse, skeg mounted rudder with a transom stern spare, etc., just more convolution, windage, complication, to a situation that doesn't warrant it. You seem typical of those that load for bear, when only hunting rabbits. This is a common trait among those that have never been in survival condisions or haven't very much deep water time under their keels.

    How many Atlantic crossing have you made and in what boat? How many times have you found a need to repair or replace a rudder at sea in deep water? I can tell you I bent a rudder off the coast of Honduras, many years ago and there's no climbing over the side of a 45' sailing yacht and fixing or replacing anything in deep water. I had to drag two 5 gallon buckets off the port quarter, just to sail a reasonably straight course. I limped into Roatan, caught a ride to La Ceiba, had a new shaft made, road back to Roatan and installed the new rig, hanging in a set of slings. I continued the delivery the next day.

    Get some actual sea time, climb up from your airchair sailing and get your butt wet. You'll find what most do, that they never see full gales or hurricane force condisions in their whole lives. Some of us actually have. Being where I am, seeing these winds isn't all that uncommon, once you have thousands of hours at sea. I've never driven through a water spout, though some have come within a 1/2 mile of me. I've been hit by lightning twice, which is a much bigger concern (in my area) than any of the imaginary storms and sea state condisions you seem to think occur, without warning or considerable frequency.
     
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