Raidboat Pacific Proa

Discussion in 'Multihulls' started by BCowan, Sep 2, 2020.

  1. Boatguy30
    Joined: Dec 2011
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    Location: St Augustine, FL

    Boatguy30 Senior Member

    Yes that's it. Obviously built with an unlimited budget. Now beginning to decay on the beach. I guess it could be 30' maybe that includes the bow sprit. If sailing with a crew especially the tacking proa seems to make more sense to me than all the shunting and extra rudder, etc. Just hike out a bit or ad some water to the ama. IMG_20200930_193141318_HDR.jpg IMG_20200930_193204196_HDR.jpg
     
  2. Clarkey
    Joined: Aug 2010
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    Location: UK

    Clarkey Senior Member

    There were some really nice drone videos of it sailing but I can't seem to track them down at the moment.

    ETA - just after I typed that I found one:

     
  3. upchurchmr
    Joined: Feb 2011
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    Location: Ft. Worth, Tx, USA

    upchurchmr Senior Member

    Why do you say this was an unlimited budget?
    Everything seems to be fairly simple elements, including the rig.
     
  4. garydierking
    Joined: Sep 2004
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    Location: New Zealand

    garydierking Senior Member

  5. Skip Johnson
    Joined: Feb 2021
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    Location: Lake Tenkiller, Ok, usa

    Skip Johnson New Member

    I'm new to this forum and a little late to the thread but I do have some experience with the EC and proas; almost got proas banned from the EC by Chief some 14 or so years ago. Duckworks Magazine - A Proa Perspective - Matters of Balance https://www.duckworksmagazine.com/07/gatherings/p52/index.htm. Here's my take on the deal. Do it.
    Keep it simple, keep it light and please plan on multiple trials and test before the EC no matter what. I will say that I never regretted the 3/4" T&G 12" wide bottom plank on P52. I'm a real fan of 3 plank sharpie style hulls with lots of flare. I'm also committed (some would say in more ways than one) to a buoyant leefoil based on Speers P3000 proa sections. Rigs and rudders still in a state of flux after all these years. Current proa Trivial Obsession has end mounted rudders and a cambered panel junk style staysail. There's no fire in my belly to take another run at the EC at 77 but I do miss doing the Texas 200. If the rig and rudders on T.O. trial out ok I'll build a replacement for P52 probably foam and glass, definitely a schooner rig.
    Cheers and best wishes
     
  6. BCowan
    Joined: Aug 2020
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    Location: Colorado

    BCowan Junior Member

    Hey I really appreciate the advice and perspective and encouragement! And I am going for it. Hopefully have a boat to launch this year. Bought my aluminum spars, got a shipment of okume panels from CLC. Ive cut panels for the ama, and just got 2 lug sails for the schooner rig already. My neighbor might do a little welding for me and I'll hopefully start building the main hull in the next month. So I have all the materials and 2 sails already! Don at Yagersails has sewn a handful of sails for me in the past and made a couple stout balanced lugsails. Schooner rig seems the way to go on a proa. Each of my sails is laser-sized about 75sqft with deep reefs. Ill post some pics here hopefully summertime and well get him rigged up and launched.

    I think I read the duckworks page a year or two ago about your EC proa, but thanks for the link again . I will heed the advice ive gotten in several places about acid testing a boat before driving to Florida. That's sounds like TX200 next and likely EC 2023.
     
  7. Skip Johnson
    Joined: Feb 2021
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    Location: Lake Tenkiller, Ok, usa

    Skip Johnson New Member

    With a little luck we might cross paths @ TX200, current proa's a bit small for the event but I've done crazier things before.
     
  8. peterAustralia
    Joined: Mar 2006
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    Location: Melbourne Australia

    peterAustralia Senior Member

    You seem set on a proa, your decision, One thing to keep in mind is that with the proa set up, it may be necessary to always have a board down for the boat to sail, otherwise the center of effort, center of lateral resistance goes all out of whack. In deep water this is fine, however you may find that in shallow water you may run aground of break a boat. I broke a daggerboard on my outrigger canoe, was annoying. A tacking set up may be an option. Many years ago I drew up lines for such a vessel. the offsets are all worked out. Forget about the complicated wheel setup, today I would just go for a simple trolley, and fits under the boat. The lines and offsets for 18.5 foot tacking outrigger canoe are found at link below
    tacking-outrigger.com replacement boat attempt 4 http://www.tackingoutrigger.com/r_boat_4.html
     
  9. Will Gilmore
    Joined: Aug 2017
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    Location: Littleton, nh

    Will Gilmore Senior Member

    BCowan, it sounds like you've got exprience and are working through your ideas intelligently. You have obviously done lots of research and I like you design. I'm not a big fan of the lug rig, but it will perform well enough, I'm sure. Personally, I'd go with the crab claw. Reefing isn't that complicated. Anyhow, I wanted to offer a suggestion for alternative auxiliary power, that I haven't seen mentioned here.

    The yuloh.

    Simple, effective, cheap, easily shipped and unshipped. Advantages over oars include the forward facing orientation and better maneuverability in tight marina space. It can be used as an emergency leeboard or rudder too.

    There are a number of great YouTube videos showing them moving boats in the 25 to 30 foot range. They have their weaknesses, but their strengths for small independent sailors looking at alternative auxiliary power are worth considering.

    Good luck, I would love to join the Water Tribe in the EC, myself one day.

    -Will (Dragonfly)
     
  10. BCowan
    Joined: Aug 2020
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    Location: Colorado

    BCowan Junior Member

    Hey there Dragonfly- ripping windy for the folks adventuring in the current 2021 EC this morning! I hope everyone is following the race tracks via watertribe.org. Thanks for the encouragement and advice!

    I have been tinkering with the design a fair amount and have gone back and forth on the foils. I have an old hobie 16 rudder assembly and plan to repurpose it for the proa. In theory, i like Rob Denneys approach to having only the two larger kickup rudders for steering and leeway control, and no board. -- Lock the forward rudder for leeway control, steer with the aft rudder, and reverse when shunting. No increase in fiddling during a shunt, still only mainsheets and rudders. In practice i just dont know if its enough lateral resistance, and i have no idea how to do the technical calculations to decide if its enough on paper, or balances well. Also, lots of shallow water in FL, so lots of kicking up and resetting rudders. Im hoping 2 rudders are enough, but a third kickup foil mounted to the windward side of the vaka would solve some problems, though it adds drag and complication.

    Is it likely that on most points of sail that no rudders are required? Seems to me that adjusting balance with the schooner rig and a centerboard might be enough to steer in open water

    And yeah, i am pretty set on a shunting proa. Thanks for link to the offsets of the 18.5' outrigger still! Tacking outriggers have some advantages, but i just cant shake the idea of a proa and a new challenge and learning to sailin a new way.

    Ill keep tinkering......
     
  11. BCowan
    Joined: Aug 2020
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    Location: Colorado

    BCowan Junior Member

    Yes - I have looked at these! I think Rael Dobkins is sculling is proa in one video of his. With a yuloh, it seems like once a boat is underway, they keep working more and more efficiently. Ill look into them some more
     
  12. BCowan
    Joined: Aug 2020
    Posts: 13
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    Location: Colorado

    BCowan Junior Member


    For sure foils needed - my plan is for a fsirly round bottomed vaka and will need some lateral resistance to climb upwind.. What's your opinion of the Rob Denney approach with 2 larger rudder foils only and no centerboard? I want to make it work. Shallow water might be tough.....
     
  13. peterAustralia
    Joined: Mar 2006
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    Location: Melbourne Australia

    peterAustralia Senior Member

    OK, I get it, it is an emotional thing. I guarantee you that you will find that you need boards with the schooner lug rig, unless your canting masts forward. The centre of effort will be too far aft, it is simple geometry. In order to overcome the centre of effort being aft of the centre of the boat, you need a board near the stern to balance the forces. You have the option in shallow water of only using the fore sail. Would be annoying shunting in shallow water, always lowering one sail and raising another. With the board always down will cause issues in shallow water. Note Mbuli Proa broke a board on its first sail. Good luck, just be aware. Canting the masts may be an option
     
  14. BCowan
    Joined: Aug 2020
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    Location: Colorado

    BCowan Junior Member

    Yep, pure emotion. Super excited and enthusiastic to see the EC winners today CRUSH the course record by almost an entire day! This record will be unbroken for years. Can't let those guys have all the fun.

    And yes, as i commented earlier in this thread about the Mbuli proa. I think they have proven dagger rudders as generally unfit for shallow coastal sailing. I dont think mbuli survived exiting Tampa Bay. My boards will certainly be kickup., and the centerboard will be on the vaka, not the outrigger.

    But the question remains- how does Rob Denneys approach to proas with 2 larger foils work and no other center/dagger board work then? Mostly schooner rigs he's designing, the forward rudder is locked in place, and unlocked in the shunt to become the new aft rudder, and the old rudder gets reversed and locked.

    Im not resisting the likely need for a kickup centerboard, im already working on an adjustable grounding-proof board. - just wondering why it seems to work on the harryproas, and why this wont work for me
     

  15. peterAustralia
    Joined: Mar 2006
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    Location: Melbourne Australia

    peterAustralia Senior Member

    Sorry I was not clear, by board, I also meant rudder. With two sails up you will need something in the water to balance CE and CLR. So yes a rudder-board that kicks up will work. Putting the rudder-board aft, where it can kick back I would think would work better than the not kick back type used in Mbuli. Well definitely on a small boat
     
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