Question about Lively 28 Hartley plans

Discussion in 'Multihulls' started by blackdaisies, Sep 21, 2009.

  1. blackdaisies
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    blackdaisies Senior Member

    Not a sailor yet, not a boat owner yet, still looking for plans even though I just bought one that I changed my mind about, maybe, but I have a question.

    Sailing to avoid canals on a trimaran, are their enough routes to avoid one? Probably a dumb question, but I'm asking it anyways. I really like the live-a-board-safely of the Hartley Lively 28 plans, they look simple to build, cheap enough to make, with lots of headroom.

    I've heard nothing bad about them and they are time proven older plans. Can the rig be changed to spirit rig, lateen, or gaff-rigged? It's going to be in plywood not ferrocrete. The plans can be used for either.

    The boat is trailerable when dismantled with the beam 7 foot on the main hull. If I need to, I can take one piece at a time through a canal, a total of 3 pieces, but what experiences have you had at canals? What are the rules?

    Sorry for the dumb questions, but I hope I will get a polite honest answer.

    Thank you.
     
  2. Richard Woods
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    Richard Woods Woods Designs

    It is a really old design. I wouldn't recommend building one. If you want a boat like that you'd be better off looking at a Cross, a Piver or a Brown Searunner. Although these are also old designs they have much better reputations and were much more successful.

    Better still, look for a used boat which will almost certainly cost less than the materials for a new one.

    Or even look at a newer design.

    Only a few trimarans can be motored with the outriggers folded in. Don't even consider ferro for a multihull. You won't be able to move the main hull safely by water without the outriggers.

    Canals vary with width (especially locks) and air height (bridges or tunnels)

    Try looking at Great Circle websites if you are in the US

    Good luck

    Richard Woods of Woods Designs

    www.sailingcatamarans.com
     
  3. blackdaisies
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    blackdaisies Senior Member

    That was a great reply. Thank you. I was using the plans for a stitch and glue plywood boat. The plans can be used for even fiberglass, also I don't want a motor in it. Sails only for cheap mooring on the water.

    I found the Brown Searunner, but not the plans. Still haven't found anything on the Cross, but I did find some information on the Piver, but not plans.


    They were built in 1968 or around that time? They look more modern.

    I'll be checking it out. I don't want a used one, but I will also look into them. I've been given the same advice on buying used would be cheaper by others on the forum.

    Thanks again.

    p.s I found them adding "trimaran" not "Boats" to the names.

    http://dngoodchild.com/divide_for_sail_boats.htm

    This one is a real cheap one to build. I'll check out the other sizes of the Pivers. Thanks again.
     
  4. Richard Woods
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    Richard Woods Woods Designs

    Please don't believe those who claim their design is "really cheap to build'. It won't be.

    As a rule of thumb, work out the worst possible materials cost for your boat. Then double it. And you will still be on the optimistic side.

    I quote from the FAQ's page of my website

    ".....How much does it cost to build a boat?

    It is a natural question for people to ask as cost is usually the main factor in deciding what boat to build. Unfortunately it's not an easy question to answer - different people want different levels of fit-out while obviously different countries have wildly different material, labour and overhead costs. So the best I can do is make comparisons between different boats and to give an idea of costs when building in the UK.

    But before I do that it's worth pointing out that building a 10m, 3T boat with 50 sq m of sail (or 33' x 6000lbs x 500 sq ft) will probably cost the same whatever designer is chosen. That's because sail and rig costs are independent of design, as are glass, resin and plywood as they are sold by weight or area. So too are cookers, anchors, lights etc etc.

    You can make a similar sort of comparison with cars. The steel in a Skoda costs the same as in a Mercedes, but the latter is ten times the price of the former! And the difference in price goes into the builders pocket and into the general public perception of "I want one of those!" So, don't be misled by those who say "my boats are cheap to build". Having said that, it is certainly possible to find designs that are expensive to build. Ones that need special one-off fittings, or use exotic materials for example.

    What is really important to homebuilders though, is the resale value. I know that's not at the forefront of your mind when choosing a new design, but you will want to have your work valued by others. I read recently that someone was complaining about the high price of second hand Woods Designs compared to other designers. Now that may be bad news for those trying to buy a cheap boat, but it has to be good news for the original builder...." etc

    Richard Woods of Woods Designs

    www.sailingcatamarans.com
     
  5. PAR
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    PAR Yacht Designer/Builder

    I'll second what has been said and add don't go without an engine. You'll find you will be in many places where you can't sail and are forced to motor along if you want to go anywhere. Canals are notorious for this. Also, it would be wise for you to get on sailboats now.

    Get rides on any and all sailboats that you can. Your sailing experiences control and completely govern what choices, likes and dislikes are in any given type of boat that you may build. If you have limited or no experience, then you haven't any idea what you want or need. Building one of these can be a painful and costly mistake. In other words you can just as easily build a boat you don't need, want or like, then one you do. How will you know the difference until you develop some experience.
     
  6. Manie B
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    Manie B Senior Member

    blackdaisies

    ALL THIS STUFF IS HORRIBLE

    http://dngoodchild.com/divide_for_sail_boats.htm

    the designs are ancient - old - outdated - lousy drawings - no support

    DONT DO IT






    there are lots of modern up to date plans available, (search Boatdesign.net) with excellent suppport

    here are multi's

    http://www.sailingcatamarans.com/


    here are mono's and small stuff

    http://www.dixdesign.com/index.html

    http://www.bateau.com/index.php

    http://www.glen-l.com/

    i can assure you that all 4 sites i have listed have excellent support
     
  7. blackdaisies
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    blackdaisies Senior Member

    http://dngoodchild.com/divide_for_sail_boats.htm

    [​IMG]

    Most of the boats on this website you can get free on Svenson's web page and aren't worth that much.

    I am not looking for a competitive looking boat. The url above is by a known and reliable boat and so was the Hartely below:


    http://www.hartley-boats.com/lively28.html

    [​IMG]

    Both have lots of people who safely owned these boats and traveled in less than the best of waters worldwide.

    Building anything at all is too expensive right now, but it's not getting any cheaper.

    I agree on the boating, I am going to ride aboard some local and try out different rigs and know the difference of what I want.


    I'm not arguing I know more, because I don't, but if they crossed the ocean in these, they say they are stout even in some bad weather, they are not going to fall apart on the ocean. I'm only worried about safety. Also both boats are easy to use an outboard engine if needed. The Piver being more light than the Hartley and easier to motor. If I feel the need to buy an outboard engine, I will do it, but anything in the water with an engine has to be ensured. I can leave the engine at home, bring it in as needed unless on a major trip, and still save money by paying insurance only for the months needed.

    A highly electrical boat will cost me a fortune. I'm hoping to go the route of solar powered lights and a few large batteries to run the radios, some type of gas for a stove, preferably methane because it's safer to keep than gasoline and cleaner burning.

    I'm not interested in a complicated design, it is a first boat. A simple boat to maintain is also what's important.

    I appreciate the help, checked out all those plans before I looked into the Hartley, then found the Piver Nugget just this week. They are both within my range for ease of building, cheap enough and sturdy enough to make a reliable, but outdated boat. Surely buying a used one of either is out of the question because they are too old.
     
  8. blackdaisies
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    blackdaisies Senior Member

    Also the Hartley will not sink if holed in any one of its hulls. This sounds to me to be the safest. Both boats have a good chance even if damaged. Safety was what I was more interested in. A good old sturdy design is better than speed or expensive electronics that will look good, but not be useful when the boat sinks.

    What about the reputation of either boat? Is there anyone who would say they are unsafe? I haven't found anything to say they wouldn't be good boats, just outdated.
     
  9. blackdaisies
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    blackdaisies Senior Member

  10. Richard Woods
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    Richard Woods Woods Designs

    What do you really want to use the boat for?? Many people don't spend enough time thinking about the right answer to this basic question and so end up building an unsuitable boat.

    The Nugget is a VERY small boat. Jim Brown sailed one to Mexico (I think the one in your photo), but he was young, tough and very experienced. And I doubt if he'd do that trip again in a Nugget.

    Very few trimarans will sink if holed, all can be supported by the other two hulls, so that isn't a feature unique to the Hartley.

    Also worth remembering is that these days the waters are much more crowded than when Piver and co were building/designing boats. So, for example, you now want boats that are manouverable in close quarters, have an engine designed in from the outset, not an afterthought.

    If the Nugget interests you then you might like my Strike trimaran.

    I wrote earlier that no boat was cheap to build.

    My Strike cost me under USD2000. I bought a beach cat for CAN600 (say USD550). That supplied the rig and outriggers. I bought 10 sheets of plywood and 10kgs epoxy for the main hull, cost under USD1200

    Maybe that is a good route to go, especially if you haven't built a boat before. At the very least you can always resell the beach cat.

    Richard Woods of Woods Designs

    www.sailingcatamarans.com
     
  11. catsketcher
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    catsketcher Senior Member

    Listen to Richard

    I had a Nugget when I was 15 (now 42) and it never really gelled with me. I didn't really like to big flat float decks and the compromises from the early design. That being said I really like simple boats. Its just that we can do them much better now with the incredible benefit of hindsight. Any idiot can design a better boat than Art Piver because we can see what has worked and what hasn't.

    Richard's Strike tri is a good example of a newer simple boat that is clever with its use of secondhand materials - I did much the same for my little folder - I got a used boat (this time a 16ft skiff which I used for its rig and gear) A mate did even better by getting a cheap Hobie 18 and a free surf row boat and made a great tri cruiser for about $2000.

    It had modern chainplates, modern sails and was faster, safer and more commodious than the Nugget. Don't get me wrong - I may one day find an old Nugget and try and do it up super well but I have a thing for multihull history. As to the Sparkle - you could do better with a more modern tri like the Seaclipper 28 or a cat of about 28-30ft.

    Get off the net and down to the sailing club. You can't work this out with logic alone. You need experience and sensation to make the project work for you.

    cheers

    Phil
     
  12. catsketcher
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    catsketcher Senior Member

    Jim Brown

    Yeah Richard the tri in the photo is of Jim Brown's tri - Juana. He and his (to be) wife sailed down to Mexico in it. According to Brown it was probably the first ocean voyage in a modern trimaran - circa 1958.

    The flat float decks are not yet part of Piver's design and the crossbeams are there instead of wing decks. She was also covered in fibreglass which was pretty revolutionary at the time.

    About a year later Piver took Nimble to England and the rot began!
     
  13. blackdaisies
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    blackdaisies Senior Member

    http://www.sailingcatamarans.com/Strike.htm

    [​IMG]

    Is this the right one? This looks like a nice little boat, but the Hartley 6'3" headroom was the one I wanted more. I don't expect to find a lot of pictures of it because it was a concrete boat. I want to build it in marine board if possible.

    Your quotes are pretty good, so if I shop around I agree I might find more deals. Two dories would make a nice catamaran, they can be sailed separately, and might be better to live on, but how do you know if you can use them as catamarans?

    I want a live-aboard. I don't think I would consider having the Piver 24 accept it's trailerable. The main point is that it should be trailerable, safe on all types of waters, and not necessarily inexpensive, but definitely there are inexpensive boats that do well and money is a factor, and bare bones styles. I don't need a refrigerator, cable, and a pool table in my boat. The lights should fit the bare minimum situation, but be efficient. It's the electronics and things I don't want too much of. A simple boat, that is all I'm explaining, but no cheap death traps.

    Tennessee does not do a lot with trimarans. They are into speedboats or pontoon boats. The only reason I don't want a pontoon is because if the boat is moored, it will still be exposed to bad weather whether I'm in it or not, and it should be able to withstand some waves. It is tornado weather here, and I'm not rebuilding or buying every time the weather gets too bad before I can get the boat out of the water.

    Tennessee is all protected water with access to the Mississippi, in turn the ocean where I would love to sail to. Space is a factor because some of the water ways get narrow, so I see what you mean by space. It is something to consider. I might never get it to the loop due to narrow waterways.

    What v-dory boats can be used as a houseboat/catamaran, but how do I know which one to buy that will hold the catamaran weight? I saw one created for motor boats, but can a boat designed for a motor boat be used for a sailing catamaran?

    http://www.spirainternational.com/hp_labr.html

    [​IMG]

    http://www.spirainternational.com/hp_puge.html

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
  14. blackdaisies
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    blackdaisies Senior Member

    http://www.selway-fisher.com/Yachts2435.htm#DRAGONFLY

    [​IMG]

    I've come down to the conclusion the only thing I am looking for is a boat with amas or outriggers. They can be stackable along side of the boat until used and would be perfect with this design, that I picked already 5 times, but changed my mind.

    It's long, narrow, a nice size cabin, safe on rough waters, but even better with outriggers.

    What about outriggers? Is there any designs available for bigger boats? Narrow canoes or kayaks? They don't hold enough weight. What about a small catamaran used for its amas?
     

  15. uncleralph
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    uncleralph Junior Member

    How do you conclude that it would be better with outriggers? A monohull is not made better by simply making it into a trimaran. In fact just the opposite is true. I think you would run into all kinds of problems making this boat into a multihull. For instance:
    1. The boat has 2,000 pounds of ballast, which you neither need or want in a trimaran. When you eliminate the ballast the boat will no longer be floating on its proper lines.
    2. The structure is not designed to take the concentrated loads of the cross beams.
    These are just two examples. I am sure there are many more complications.

    If you like the boat and it fits your needs, build it as designed. It will not be made better by adding training wheels.
     
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